"Top Hat" GH with NARODs for VHF-HI: Major GH Improvement - Page 3 - Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums

300ohm · 2010-06-05, 12:52 PM

Looks good, looks like I expected, and the dip is minimized.

It will be interesting to see how much less JEDs GH4 version will produce. The GH4 would be the easier build and still about 75 inches tall by 38 inches wide in the double bay version.

On another note, I replaced the 3 NAROD reflectors of the model in post #19 with a 32 X 36 inch, 2" X 4" mesh thinking that if 3 reflectors are better than 2, then 4 are better than 3 etc and mesh should be best, heh.

CM model segmentation is derived from autosegmentation 22 at 800Mhz
CM for VHF AGT of 1 set the radius multiplier of the souce wire to 1
CE
GW 1 23 0 -2.9724409 0 0 -8.0948031 5.12237008 0.125
GW 2 25 0 -8.0948031 5.12237008 0 -2.3878346 10.8293622 0.125
GW 3 21 0 -2.3878346 10.8293622 0 -7.1483071 15.5898268 0.125
GW 4 15 0 -7.1483071 15.5898268 0 -12.030197 15.5898268 0.125
GW 5 39 -2.952756 0.8661417 3.3464567 -2.952756 13.543307 3.3464567 0.125
GW 6 39 -2.952756 1.4173228 11.771654 -2.952756 14.330709 11.771654 0.125
GW 7 37 -2.952756 1.9488189 23.228346 -2.952756 14.232283 23.228346 0.125
GW 11 7 0 -7.8949606 18.1244488 0 -7.8949606 15.9773622 0.125
GW 14 15 0 -7.8949606 15.9773622 0 -12.93937 15.9773622 0.125
GW 21 23 0 2.97244094 0 0 8.09480315 5.12237008 0.125
GW 22 25 0 8.09480315 5.12237008 0 2.38783465 10.8293622 0.125
GW 23 21 0 2.38783465 10.8293622 0 7.14830709 15.5898268 0.125
GW 24 15 0 7.14830709 15.5898268 0 12.0301969 15.5898268 0.125
GW 25 39 -2.952756 -0.866142 3.3464567 -2.952756 -13.54331 3.3464567 0.125
GW 26 39 -2.952756 -1.417323 11.771654 -2.952756 -14.33071 11.771654 0.125
GW 27 37 -2.952756 -1.948819 23.228346 -2.952756 -14.23228 23.228346 0.125
GW 31 7 0 7.89496063 18.1244488 0 7.89496063 15.9773622 0.125
GW 34 15 0 7.89496063 15.9773622 0 12.9393701 15.9773622 0.125
GW 10 51 0 7.89496063 18.1244488 0 -7.8949606 18.1244488 0.125
GW 41 23 0 -2.9724409 0 0 -8.0948031 -5.1223701 0.125
GW 42 25 0 -8.0948031 -5.1223701 0 -2.3878346 -10.829362 0.125
GW 43 21 0 -2.3878346 -10.829362 0 -7.1483071 -15.589827 0.125
GW 44 15 0 -7.1483071 -15.589827 0 -12.030197 -15.589827 0.125
GW 45 39 -2.952756 0.8661417 -3.346457 -2.952756 13.543307 -3.346457 0.125
GW 46 39 -2.952756 1.4173228 -11.77165 -2.952756 14.330709 -11.77165 0.125
GW 47 37 -2.952756 1.9488189 -23.22835 -2.952756 14.232283 -23.22835 0.125
GW 51 7 0 -7.8949606 -18.124449 0 -7.8949606 -15.977362 0.125
GW 54 15 0 -7.8949606 -15.977362 0 -12.93937 -15.977362 0.125
GW 61 23 0 2.97244094 0 0 8.09480315 -5.1223701 0.125
GW 62 25 0 8.09480315 -5.1223701 0 2.38783465 -10.829362 0.125
GW 63 21 0 2.38783465 -10.829362 0 7.14830709 -15.589827 0.125
GW 64 15 0 7.14830709 -15.589827 0 12.0301969 -15.589827 0.125
GW 65 39 -2.952756 -0.866142 -3.346457 -2.952756 -13.54331 -3.346457 0.125
GW 66 39 -2.952756 -1.417323 -11.77165 -2.952756 -14.33071 -11.77165 0.125
GW 67 37 -2.952756 -1.948819 -23.22835 -2.952756 -14.23228 -23.22835 0.125
GW 71 7 0 7.89496063 -18.124449 0 7.89496063 -15.977362 0.125
GW 74 15 0 7.89496063 -15.977362 0 12.9393701 -15.977362 0.125
GW 50 51 0 7.89496063 -18.124449 0 -7.8949606 -18.124449 0.125
GW 100 17 0 -2.9724409 0 0 2.97244094 0 0.10843701
GW 101 13 -12 -16 18 -12 -12 18 0.05094856
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GW 103 13 -12 -8 18 -12 -4 18 0.05094856
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GW 105 13 -12 0 18 -12 4 18 0.05094856
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GW 133 7 -12 12 16 -12 12 14 0.05094856
GW 134 7 -12 16 16 -12 16 14 0.05094856
GW 135 13 -12 -16 14 -12 -12 14 0.05094856
GW 136 13 -12 -12 14 -12 -8 14 0.05094856
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GW 142 13 -12 12 14 -12 16 14 0.05094856
GW 143 7 -12 -16 14 -12 -16 12 0.05094856
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GW 150 7 -12 12 14 -12 12 12 0.05094856
GW 151 7 -12 16 14 -12 16 12 0.05094856
GW 152 13 -12 -16 12 -12 -12 12 0.05094856
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GW 155 13 -12 -4 12 -12 0 12 0.05094856
GW 156 13 -12 0 12 -12 4 12 0.05094856
GW 157 13 -12 4 12 -12 8 12 0.05094856
GW 158 13 -12 8 12 -12 12 12 0.05094856
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GW 160 7 -12 -16 12 -12 -16 10 0.05094856
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GW 164 7 -12 0 12 -12 0 10 0.05094856
GW 165 7 -12 4 12 -12 4 10 0.05094856
GW 166 7 -12 8 12 -12 8 10 0.05094856
GW 167 7 -12 12 12 -12 12 10 0.05094856
GW 168 7 -12 16 12 -12 16 10 0.05094856
GW 169 13 -12 -16 10 -12 -12 10 0.05094856
GW 170 13 -12 -12 10 -12 -8 10 0.05094856
GW 171 13 -12 -8 10 -12 -4 10 0.05094856
GW 172 13 -12 -4 10 -12 0 10 0.05094856
GW 173 13 -12 0 10 -12 4 10 0.05094856
GW 174 13 -12 4 10 -12 8 10 0.05094856
GW 175 13 -12 8 10 -12 12 10 0.05094856
GW 176 13 -12 12 10 -12 16 10 0.05094856
GW 177 7 -12 -16 10 -12 -16 8 0.05094856
GW 178 7 -12 -12 10 -12 -12 8 0.05094856
GW 179 7 -12 -8 10 -12 -8 8 0.05094856
GW 180 7 -12 -4 10 -12 -4 8 0.05094856
GW 181 7 -12 0 10 -12 0 8 0.05094856
GW 182 7 -12 4 10 -12 4 8 0.05094856
GW 183 7 -12 8 10 -12 8 8 0.05094856
GW 184 7 -12 12 10 -12 12 8 0.05094856
GW 185 7 -12 16 10 -12 16 8 0.05094856
GW 186 13 -12 -16 8 -12 -12 8 0.05094856
GW 187 13 -12 -12 8 -12 -8 8 0.05094856
GW 188 13 -12 -8 8 -12 -4 8 0.05094856
GW 189 13 -12 -4 8 -12 0 8 0.05094856
GW 190 13 -12 0 8 -12 4 8 0.05094856
GW 191 13 -12 4 8 -12 8 8 0.05094856
GW 192 13 -12 8 8 -12 12 8 0.05094856
GW 193 13 -12 12 8 -12 16 8 0.05094856
GW 194 7 -12 -16 8 -12 -16 6 0.05094856
GW 195 7 -12 -12 8 -12 -12 6 0.05094856
GW 196 7 -12 -8 8 -12 -8 6 0.05094856
GW 197 7 -12 -4 8 -12 -4 6 0.05094856
GW 198 7 -12 0 8 -12 0 6 0.05094856
GW 199 7 -12 4 8 -12 4 6 0.05094856
GW 200 7 -12 8 8 -12 8 6 0.05094856
GW 201 7 -12 12 8 -12 12 6 0.05094856
GW 202 7 -12 16 8 -12 16 6 0.05094856
GW 203 13 -12 -16 6 -12 -12 6 0.05094856
GW 204 13 -12 -12 6 -12 -8 6 0.05094856
GW 205 13 -12 -8 6 -12 -4 6 0.05094856
GW 206 13 -12 -4 6 -12 0 6 0.05094856
GW 207 13 -12 0 6 -12 4 6 0.05094856
GW 208 13 -12 4 6 -12 8 6 0.05094856
GW 209 13 -12 8 6 -12 12 6 0.05094856
GW 210 13 -12 12 6 -12 16 6 0.05094856
GW 211 7 -12 -16 6 -12 -16 4 0.05094856
GW 212 7 -12 -12 6 -12 -12 4 0.05094856
GW 213 7 -12 -8 6 -12 -8 4 0.05094856
GW 214 7 -12 -4 6 -12 -4 4 0.05094856
GW 215 7 -12 0 6 -12 0 4 0.05094856
GW 216 7 -12 4 6 -12 4 4 0.05094856
GW 217 7 -12 8 6 -12 8 4 0.05094856
GW 218 7 -12 12 6 -12 12 4 0.05094856
GW 219 7 -12 16 6 -12 16 4 0.05094856
GW 220 13 -12 -16 4 -12 -12 4 0.05094856
GW 221 13 -12 -12 4 -12 -8 4 0.05094856
GW 222 13 -12 -8 4 -12 -4 4 0.05094856
GW 223 13 -12 -4 4 -12 0 4 0.05094856
GW 224 13 -12 0 4 -12 4 4 0.05094856
GW 225 13 -12 4 4 -12 8 4 0.05094856
GW 226 13 -12 8 4 -12 12 4 0.05094856
GW 227 13 -12 12 4 -12 16 4 0.05094856
GW 228 7 -12 -16 4 -12 -16 2 0.05094856
GW 229 7 -12 -12 4 -12 -12 2 0.05094856
GW 230 7 -12 -8 4 -12 -8 2 0.05094856
GW 231 7 -12 -4 4 -12 -4 2 0.05094856
GW 232 7 -12 0 4 -12 0 2 0.05094856
GW 233 7 -12 4 4 -12 4 2 0.05094856
GW 234 7 -12 8 4 -12 8 2 0.05094856
GW 235 7 -12 12 4 -12 12 2 0.05094856
GW 236 7 -12 16 4 -12 16 2 0.05094856
GW 237 13 -12 -16 2 -12 -12 2 0.05094856
GW 238 13 -12 -12 2 -12 -8 2 0.05094856
GW 239 13 -12 -8 2 -12 -4 2 0.05094856
GW 240 13 -12 -4 2 -12 0 2 0.05094856
GW 241 13 -12 0 2 -12 4 2 0.05094856
GW 242 13 -12 4 2 -12 8 2 0.05094856
GW 243 13 -12 8 2 -12 12 2 0.05094856
GW 244 13 -12 12 2 -12 16 2 0.05094856
GW 245 7 -12 -16 2 -12 -16 -1.311e-14 0.05094856
GW 246 7 -12 -12 2 -12 -12 -1.311e-14 0.05094856
GW 247 7 -12 -8 2 -12 -8 -1.311e-14 0.05094856
GW 248 7 -12 -4 2 -12 -4 -1.311e-14 0.05094856
GW 249 7 -12 0 2 -12 0 -1.311e-14 0.05094856
GW 250 7 -12 4 2 -12 4 -1.311e-14 0.05094856
GW 251 7 -12 8 2 -12 8 -1.311e-14 0.05094856
GW 252 7 -12 12 2 -12 12 -1.311e-14 0.05094856
GW 253 7 -12 16 2 -12 16 -1.311e-14 0.05094856
GW 254 13 -12 -16 -1.311e-14 -12 -12 -1.311e-14 0.05094856
GW 255 13 -12 -12 -1.311e-14 -12 -8 -1.311e-14 0.05094856
GW 256 13 -12 -8 -1.311e-14 -12 -4 -1.311e-14 0.05094856
GW 257 13 -12 -4 -1.311e-14 -12 0 -1.311e-14 0.05094856
GW 258 13 -12 0 -1.311e-14 -12 4 -1.311e-14 0.05094856
GW 259 13 -12 4 -1.311e-14 -12 8 -1.311e-14 0.05094856
GW 260 13 -12 8 -1.311e-14 -12 12 -1.311e-14 0.05094856
GW 261 13 -12 12 -1.311e-14 -12 16 -1.311e-14 0.05094856
GW 262 7 -12 -16 -1.311e-14 -12 -16 -2 0.05094856
GW 263 7 -12 -12 -1.311e-14 -12 -12 -2 0.05094856
GW 264 7 -12 -8 -1.311e-14 -12 -8 -2 0.05094856
GW 265 7 -12 -4 -1.311e-14 -12 -4 -2 0.05094856
GW 266 7 -12 0 -1.311e-14 -12 0 -2 0.05094856
GW 267 7 -12 4 -1.311e-14 -12 4 -2 0.05094856
GW 268 7 -12 8 -1.311e-14 -12 8 -2 0.05094856
GW 269 7 -12 12 -1.311e-14 -12 12 -2 0.05094856
GW 270 7 -12 16 -1.311e-14 -12 16 -2 0.05094856
GW 271 13 -12 -16 -2 -12 -12 -2 0.05094856
GW 272 13 -12 -12 -2 -12 -8 -2 0.05094856
GW 273 13 -12 -8 -2 -12 -4 -2 0.05094856
GW 274 13 -12 -4 -2 -12 0 -2 0.05094856
GW 275 13 -12 0 -2 -12 4 -2 0.05094856
GW 276 13 -12 4 -2 -12 8 -2 0.05094856
GW 277 13 -12 8 -2 -12 12 -2 0.05094856
GW 278 13 -12 12 -2 -12 16 -2 0.05094856
GW 279 7 -12 -16 -2 -12 -16 -4 0.05094856
GW 280 7 -12 -12 -2 -12 -12 -4 0.05094856
GW 281 7 -12 -8 -2 -12 -8 -4 0.05094856
GW 282 7 -12 -4 -2 -12 -4 -4 0.05094856
GW 283 7 -12 0 -2 -12 0 -4 0.05094856
GW 284 7 -12 4 -2 -12 4 -4 0.05094856
GW 285 7 -12 8 -2 -12 8 -4 0.05094856
GW 286 7 -12 12 -2 -12 12 -4 0.05094856
GW 287 7 -12 16 -2 -12 16 -4 0.05094856
GW 288 13 -12 -16 -4 -12 -12 -4 0.05094856
GW 289 13 -12 -12 -4 -12 -8 -4 0.05094856
GW 290 13 -12 -8 -4 -12 -4 -4 0.05094856
GW 291 13 -12 -4 -4 -12 0 -4 0.05094856
GW 292 13 -12 0 -4 -12 4 -4 0.05094856
GW 293 13 -12 4 -4 -12 8 -4 0.05094856
GW 294 13 -12 8 -4 -12 12 -4 0.05094856
GW 295 13 -12 12 -4 -12 16 -4 0.05094856
GW 296 7 -12 -16 -4 -12 -16 -6 0.05094856
GW 297 7 -12 -12 -4 -12 -12 -6 0.05094856
GW 298 7 -12 -8 -4 -12 -8 -6 0.05094856
GW 299 7 -12 -4 -4 -12 -4 -6 0.05094856
GW 300 7 -12 0 -4 -12 0 -6 0.05094856
GW 301 7 -12 4 -4 -12 4 -6 0.05094856
GW 302 7 -12 8 -4 -12 8 -6 0.05094856
GW 303 7 -12 12 -4 -12 12 -6 0.05094856
GW 304 7 -12 16 -4 -12 16 -6 0.05094856
GW 305 13 -12 -16 -6 -12 -12 -6 0.05094856
GW 306 13 -12 -12 -6 -12 -8 -6 0.05094856
GW 307 13 -12 -8 -6 -12 -4 -6 0.05094856
GW 308 13 -12 -4 -6 -12 0 -6 0.05094856
GW 309 13 -12 0 -6 -12 4 -6 0.05094856
GW 310 13 -12 4 -6 -12 8 -6 0.05094856
GW 311 13 -12 8 -6 -12 12 -6 0.05094856
GW 312 13 -12 12 -6 -12 16 -6 0.05094856
GW 313 7 -12 -16 -6 -12 -16 -8 0.05094856
GW 314 7 -12 -12 -6 -12 -12 -8 0.05094856
GW 315 7 -12 -8 -6 -12 -8 -8 0.05094856
GW 316 7 -12 -4 -6 -12 -4 -8 0.05094856
GW 317 7 -12 0 -6 -12 0 -8 0.05094856
GW 318 7 -12 4 -6 -12 4 -8 0.05094856
GW 319 7 -12 8 -6 -12 8 -8 0.05094856
GW 320 7 -12 12 -6 -12 12 -8 0.05094856
GW 321 7 -12 16 -6 -12 16 -8 0.05094856
GW 322 13 -12 -16 -8 -12 -12 -8 0.05094856
GW 323 13 -12 -12 -8 -12 -8 -8 0.05094856
GW 324 13 -12 -8 -8 -12 -4 -8 0.05094856
GW 325 13 -12 -4 -8 -12 0 -8 0.05094856
GW 326 13 -12 0 -8 -12 4 -8 0.05094856
GW 327 13 -12 4 -8 -12 8 -8 0.05094856
GW 328 13 -12 8 -8 -12 12 -8 0.05094856
GW 329 13 -12 12 -8 -12 16 -8 0.05094856
GW 330 7 -12 -16 -8 -12 -16 -10 0.05094856
GW 331 7 -12 -12 -8 -12 -12 -10 0.05094856
GW 332 7 -12 -8 -8 -12 -8 -10 0.05094856
GW 333 7 -12 -4 -8 -12 -4 -10 0.05094856
GW 334 7 -12 0 -8 -12 0 -10 0.05094856
GW 335 7 -12 4 -8 -12 4 -10 0.05094856
GW 336 7 -12 8 -8 -12 8 -10 0.05094856
GW 337 7 -12 12 -8 -12 12 -10 0.05094856
GW 338 7 -12 16 -8 -12 16 -10 0.05094856
GW 339 13 -12 -16 -10 -12 -12 -10 0.05094856
GW 340 13 -12 -12 -10 -12 -8 -10 0.05094856
GW 341 13 -12 -8 -10 -12 -4 -10 0.05094856
GW 342 13 -12 -4 -10 -12 0 -10 0.05094856
GW 343 13 -12 0 -10 -12 4 -10 0.05094856
GW 344 13 -12 4 -10 -12 8 -10 0.05094856
GW 345 13 -12 8 -10 -12 12 -10 0.05094856
GW 346 13 -12 12 -10 -12 16 -10 0.05094856
GW 347 7 -12 -16 -10 -12 -16 -12 0.05094856
GW 348 7 -12 -12 -10 -12 -12 -12 0.05094856
GW 349 7 -12 -8 -10 -12 -8 -12 0.05094856
GW 350 7 -12 -4 -10 -12 -4 -12 0.05094856
GW 351 7 -12 0 -10 -12 0 -12 0.05094856
GW 352 7 -12 4 -10 -12 4 -12 0.05094856
GW 353 7 -12 8 -10 -12 8 -12 0.05094856
GW 354 7 -12 12 -10 -12 12 -12 0.05094856
GW 355 7 -12 16 -10 -12 16 -12 0.05094856
GW 356 13 -12 -16 -12 -12 -12 -12 0.05094856
GW 357 13 -12 -12 -12 -12 -8 -12 0.05094856
GW 358 13 -12 -8 -12 -12 -4 -12 0.05094856
GW 359 13 -12 -4 -12 -12 0 -12 0.05094856
GW 360 13 -12 0 -12 -12 4 -12 0.05094856
GW 361 13 -12 4 -12 -12 8 -12 0.05094856
GW 362 13 -12 8 -12 -12 12 -12 0.05094856
GW 363 13 -12 12 -12 -12 16 -12 0.05094856
GW 364 7 -12 -16 -12 -12 -16 -14 0.05094856
GW 365 7 -12 -12 -12 -12 -12 -14 0.05094856
GW 366 7 -12 -8 -12 -12 -8 -14 0.05094856
GW 367 7 -12 -4 -12 -12 -4 -14 0.05094856
GW 368 7 -12 0 -12 -12 0 -14 0.05094856
GW 369 7 -12 4 -12 -12 4 -14 0.05094856
GW 370 7 -12 8 -12 -12 8 -14 0.05094856
GW 371 7 -12 12 -12 -12 12 -14 0.05094856
GW 372 7 -12 16 -12 -12 16 -14 0.05094856
GW 373 13 -12 -16 -14 -12 -12 -14 0.05094856
GW 374 13 -12 -12 -14 -12 -8 -14 0.05094856
GW 375 13 -12 -8 -14 -12 -4 -14 0.05094856
GW 376 13 -12 -4 -14 -12 0 -14 0.05094856
GW 377 13 -12 0 -14 -12 4 -14 0.05094856
GW 378 13 -12 4 -14 -12 8 -14 0.05094856
GW 379 13 -12 8 -14 -12 12 -14 0.05094856
GW 380 13 -12 12 -14 -12 16 -14 0.05094856
GW 381 7 -12 -16 -14 -12 -16 -16 0.05094856
GW 382 7 -12 -12 -14 -12 -12 -16 0.05094856
GW 383 7 -12 -8 -14 -12 -8 -16 0.05094856
GW 384 7 -12 -4 -14 -12 -4 -16 0.05094856
GW 385 7 -12 0 -14 -12 0 -16 0.05094856
GW 386 7 -12 4 -14 -12 4 -16 0.05094856
GW 387 7 -12 8 -14 -12 8 -16 0.05094856
GW 388 7 -12 12 -14 -12 12 -16 0.05094856
GW 389 7 -12 16 -14 -12 16 -16 0.05094856
GW 390 13 -12 -16 -16 -12 -12 -16 0.05094856
GW 391 13 -12 -12 -16 -12 -8 -16 0.05094856
GW 392 13 -12 -8 -16 -12 -4 -16 0.05094856
GW 393 13 -12 -4 -16 -12 0 -16 0.05094856
GW 394 13 -12 0 -16 -12 4 -16 0.05094856
GW 395 13 -12 4 -16 -12 8 -16 0.05094856
GW 396 13 -12 8 -16 -12 12 -16 0.05094856
GW 397 13 -12 12 -16 -12 16 -16 0.05094856
GW 398 7 -12 -16 -16 -12 -16 -18 0.05094856
GW 399 7 -12 -12 -16 -12 -12 -18 0.05094856
GW 400 7 -12 -8 -16 -12 -8 -18 0.05094856
GW 401 7 -12 -4 -16 -12 -4 -18 0.05094856
GW 402 7 -12 0 -16 -12 0 -18 0.05094856
GW 403 7 -12 4 -16 -12 4 -18 0.05094856
GW 404 7 -12 8 -16 -12 8 -18 0.05094856
GW 405 7 -12 12 -16 -12 12 -18 0.05094856
GW 406 7 -12 16 -16 -12 16 -18 0.05094856
GW 407 13 -12 -16 -18 -12 -12 -18 0.05094856
GW 408 13 -12 -12 -18 -12 -8 -18 0.05094856
GW 409 13 -12 -8 -18 -12 -4 -18 0.05094856
GW 410 13 -12 -4 -18 -12 0 -18 0.05094856
GW 411 13 -12 0 -18 -12 4 -18 0.05094856
GW 412 13 -12 4 -18 -12 8 -18 0.05094856
GW 413 13 -12 8 -18 -12 12 -18 0.05094856
GW 414 13 -12 12 -18 -12 16 -18 0.05094856
GS 0 0 0.0254 ' All in in.
GE 0
EK
LD 5 0 0 0 2.49e7 0
EX 0 100 9 0 1 0
GN -1
FR 0 1 0 0 800 0
RP 0 60 73 1001 0 0 3 5

Bottom line, not good.
While VHF-Hi wasnt hurt too badly, it did a real number on UHF.

Rods are definately best for this application, heh.

300ohm · 2010-06-06, 07:54 AM

Ill need to do more work on the double bay version of the orig GH6 with top hat NARODs and 6 NAROD reflectors. So far, Ive only gotten it to peak at 11.59 dbi with a SWR of 2.23. Not an improvement in peak gain over what I originally had here on post #20: http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...t=99907&page=2
I was hoping for more with the 2 extra NAROD reflectors because the single bay version looked so promising.

The law of marginal utility of NAROD reflectors kicking in ??

The gain and SWR curves are smoother though, and the channel 13 gain is up about a db.

Autofils · 2010-06-06, 10:36 AM

300Ohm,

In post #17 of the YA-1713 thread you made the following comment:

Quote:

Originally Posted by 300Ohm

Autofils,

A couple of notes on 4nec2 modeling you may not be aware of while you were gone.

1) per Arie Voors, when running an AGT test, set the resolution to 2 degrees instead of the default 5. This is to take care of possible tiny lobes that could distort the test.

2) Also, set Auto-Segmentation to 21. If Auto-Segmentation is set to around 15, the gain could be significantly overstated. Theres a thread on this somewhere.

Yes, I have been away for about 15 months and I appreciate the heads-up about the latest 4nec2 modeling notes.

In reference to your 2nd comment about 4nec2 modeling notes (quoted above), am I to assume that your nec file in post #31 of this thread is an example of the new 4nec2 auto-segmentation note? [Reference link for nec file: http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...0&postcount=31m ]

Nikiml's Top-Hat Narod design ( GH6.3 ) is based on the j3d GH6_rev2 which was designed for a bandwidth of Ch 14-51 (470 to 698Mhz).

The comment note in your nec file of post #16 states:
CM model segmentation is derived from autosegmentation 22 at 800Mhz
CM for VHF AGT of 1 set the radius multiplier of the souce wire to 1

I am somewhat puzzled as to why you set the auto-seg for 800Mhz, when the upper freq of the design objective for UHF is 698 mHz (a difference of 102mHz above the upper design limit)

I ran the AGT test at 800mHz and got this result: 1.0 (0.1dB), which is an excellent AGT result, but it is 102mHz above the upper design limit.
The validation check after running the AGT test just showed the typical warnings len/rad at junction (...x...) below 6 ( nothing to be overly concerned about)

For AGT tests, I always follow Ken Nist's advice when running AGT and run it at the mid freq of the desired bandwidth. For this design, the desired bandwidth is Ch 14-51 and the mid-freq is 584 mHz.

When I set the freq for the AGT test at 584mhz, instead of 800mHz as you did, I get the warnings that Ken Nist spoke about in my post # 30 on this thread and these warnings pop up before the AGT test is run. Reference link to Post 30: [ http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...9&postcount=30 ]

AGT test warnings at 585mHz

Code:

GH 6.3 Combo by Nikiml with 300Ohm Mesh narod Screen.nec wavelength=0.513 mtr.

Note : parallel Wires 4 (tag 4) and 9 (tag 14) have unequal segmentation
Note : parallel Wires 13 (tag 24) and 18 (tag 34) have unequal segmentation
Note : parallel Wires 23 (tag 44) and 28 (tag 54) have unequal segmentation
Note : parallel Wires 32 (tag 64) and 37 (tag 74) have unequal segmentation

If you check your model's geometry you will find that these warnings are because of the close proximity of the "c"section of the Narod to the array's horizontal stub.
Wires 4 and 9 are the top-left
Wires 13 and 18 are top right
Wires 23 and 28 are left bottom
Wires 32 and 37 are right bottom

Personally, I will continue to run AGT tests at the mid freq of the design bandwidth. In some cases I also check at the upper and lower design bandwidth limits.

I don't use auto-seg, partly because Arie Voors previously had bugs with that code in the past and I prefer to run a "convergence test" at higher segmentation density as well as the AGT test, as outlined in the Beginner's guide to NEC modeling.

On another point about your mesh screen UHF results: I suspect that you would see a better UHF gain-freq response if you eliminated the UHF collinear reflectors. I think you mesh screen is causing severe disruption to the normal gain pattern that the coliinears normally provide. You are probably aware that this can easily be done with 4nec2 by using the geometry editor to delete those elements and then run a freq sweep using "this current modified geometry" If you like what you see, you can save as a new file name from the geometry editor. Just remember that such saves will discard any SY variable data you had in the model.

Cheers

300ohm · 2010-06-06, 11:51 AM

Quote:

The comment note in your nec file of post #16 states:
CM model segmentation is derived from autosegmentation 22 at 800Mhz
CM for VHF AGT of 1 set the radius multiplier of the souce wire to 1
I am somewhat puzzled as to why you set the auto-seg for 800Mhz, when the upper freq of the design objective for UHF is 698 mHz (a difference of 102mHz above the upper design limit)

Yes, thats 102 mhz too high IMO too. Those are nikiml's comments and I just left things alone for a straight comparison of a failed experiment with the mesh for a NAROD reflector, heh. (except I have my auto-segmentation set at 21, close enough. IIRC, 10 to 16 are the magic numbers to avoid)

Quote:

For AGT tests, I always follow Ken Nist's advice when running AGT and run it at the mid freq of the desired bandwidth. For this design, the desired bandwidth is Ch 14-51 and the mid-freq is 584 mHz.

Yep, same here, 585 mhz and then one at 470 and 698 mhz.

Quote:

I don't use auto-seg, partly because Arie Voors previously had bugs with that code in the past

Interesting, I didnt know the history. We certainly ran into it when different people got different results with the same NEC file, heh.

Quote:

I suspect that you would see a better UHF gain-freq response if you eliminated the UHF collinear reflectors. I think you mesh screen is causing severe disruption to the normal gain pattern that the coliinears normally provide.

True, but I suspect Ill lose uhf gain, as the mesh is 12" behind the elements. Like I said, its just a failed experiment that shows rods are the way to go with NARODs.

Ah ha, I found the auto-segmentation controversy ! Before and after Snowman53 post #42 here:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...tation&page=29
If its a bug, I think its a NEC engine bug, not just 4nec2.

nikiml · 2010-06-06, 12:38 PM

Well, the sweeps, even when autosegmentation is used, are done with the same segmentation for all frequencies.

I chose this one segmentation to be the one that the autosegmentation generates at 800Mhz with 22 seg per half-wave.
I then fix this segmentation into the nec file, turn the autosegmentation off and I do AGT test at 174, 195, 216, 470, 585 and 710 Mhz.

If you use autosegmentation 22 for the AGT test you'll get quite different results, because for every frequency a different segmentation will be used.

Autofils · 2010-06-06, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 300Ohm

Ah ha, I found the auto-segmentation controversy ! Before and after Snowman53 post #42 here:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...tation&page=29
If its a bug, I think its a NEC engine bug, not just 4nec2.

300Ohm,

Thanks for the link re the discussion on auto-seg. I have only quickly scanned from post #422 to 432, but I'm not at all sure, I can identify any clear consensus. It appears that there was agreement to use auto-segmentation, but I am left wondering if the original cause of different modeling results was clearly understood.

A modeler gives up control of his model to this auto-segmentation algorithm that Arie has coded for 4nec2. I'm from the old school, where you manually set the segmentation. Then as I said before, besides running an AGT test at the mid designed bandwidth freq, (or at the band limits, if required) you also run convergence tests by increasing the manually set segmentation to ensure there is no significant change in the gain/swr results if more segments are defined in your model. Now for TV UHF, you also run up against that wire diam /seg_len problem, so you do have to be careful and really understand what these tests do and what you are doing as well ... life is not always simple and blind accepance on automatic computer segmentation may have some unexpected consequences.

I would refer folks to the ARRL Antenna Book Chp 4 "Antenna Modeling & System Planing ( I have 21st edition). It discusses the Accuracy Tests for nec models. There are only two: The Convergence test and the Average gain test (AGT)

Here is an important quote from pg 4-16: Like the convergence test, the average gain test is a necessary but not a sufficient condition of model reliability. Pass both tests, however and you can be pretty well sure that your model represents reality.

For any modeler that posts on this forum, that does not understand this quote, I highly recommend that you beg, borrow or steal a copy of the ARRL Antenna Book and start reading. I don't really advise breaking the law

.... It should be available in just about any public library in North America.

You should also read all 4 parts of "A Beginner's Guide to Modeling with NEC". Part 4 has good discussion on the convergence and AGT tests under the heading "Testing Models". These guides are available on Arie's site. http://home.ict.nl/~arivoors/

I hope this helps.

300ohm · 2010-06-06, 02:10 PM

Quote:

A modeler gives up control of his model to this auto-segmentation algorithm that Arie has coded for 4nec2. I'm from the old school, where you manually set the segmentation.

Thats true and I also like manual segmentation. I noted in the discussions, that sometimes I have no other choice but to use manual segmentation or else violate some other NEC rule and get NEC error messages, especially when modeling commercial antennas. I like to model them as I see them.

But I can also now see a problem arising where I manually segment something X, someone else has auto-segmentation on or uses/changes a different manual segmentation, and we get results that differ on the order of a couple of db. So then were left trying to figure which is the correct number, and we look at mini-nec. It seems to be fairly accurate, segmentation has to be above about 18, so most set to 21 or 22. This of course presents other problems with high segment count antennas like the 91XG or CM-4251 parabola.

Autofils · 2010-06-06, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 300Ohm

But I can also now see a problem arising where I manually segment something X, someone else has auto-segmentation on or uses/changes a different manual segmentation, and we get results that differ on the order of a couple of db.

300Ohm,

Based on my own experience, I can tell you that I find a difference of a couple of dB, very surprising for a model with the min of 10segs per half wavelength vs say 22 segs per half-wavelength. Were the segments per element of the two models apportioned the same by element length? If you are tweaking the antenna design, you always need to recalculate the segmentation to ensure this equal segmentation is maintained for all elements.

If you are certain that all elements were equally segmented by length, then that couple of dB difference would have been easily detected by a convergence test. You do not need auto-segmentation to do that. So I am still left wondering what were the reasons that lead to the auto-seg consensus.

Anyway, not to worry... I'm a old foggy that's set in his ways and if anyone wants to read-up on this subject in more detail, I provided some good reference links in my previous post on this subject.

I really need to get back working on my web-site. Spending far too much time on this forum lately.

Cheers

300ohm · 2010-06-06, 02:57 PM

Quote:

I can tell you that I find a difference of a couple of dB, very surprising for a model with the min of 10segs per half wavelength vs say 22 segs per half-wavelength.

OK, 1 1/4 dbi, I exaggerated a bit,heh.

zapperman · 2010-06-06, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autofils

...I really need to get back working on my web-site...

Yes, you do. Some of us are eagerly awaiting that, as well as your Rev 3 GH10 antennas... back to work!

Autofils · 2010-06-06, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zapperaman

Yes, you do. Some of us are eagerly awaiting that, as well as your Rev 3 GH10 antennas... back to work!

The launch is looking more like mid July now.
Some of my time presently is spent regarding the latest legal twist for current Canadian Nortel LTDs. This is truly a very sad story, and for most people it is totally unbelievable that it could actually happen in Canada... but it has !!

Normally I don't reference such news stories on the forum, and I suspect that Stampeder will remove this link, but until he does, here is a short article by a Nortel pensioner in Atlanta. Tom tells this Canadian Nortel LTD story "Straight and True" and I thought you should know.
All we can do is write & phone our elected politicians to get them to act and bring justice for those Nortel LTD employees, and that is what many of us are doing.

http://retire-secure.blogspot.com/20...cision-on.html

Karyudo · 2010-06-07, 01:46 AM

I live near Vancouver, BC. I want to build a DBGH with the best possible performance.

I have the time, patience, and skill to build a DBGH, and I may even have the time, patience, and skill to figure out how to hold all the antenna elements in the right places -- but I have no interest whatsoever in figuring out where those places are (i.e. computer modelling, or manually translating 3-D coordinates into build dimensions).

This modification is being touted as the latest and greatest, but it doesn't look like it's ready for prime time. Or is it?

Where can I find build plans to work from? Or, where is there a tool to turn all the columns of NEC numbers into real-world dimensions? In the absence of any other information, what are the rules of thumb for expanding a SBGH into a DBGH?

300ohm · 2010-06-07, 06:22 AM

I have simple step by step instructions for getting measurements from NEC data here:

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=107457

With the multitude of antenna models on this site, it becomes an impossibility to do CAD drawings of all of them. And 4nec2 already has a pretty nice way of displaying the models.

300ohm · 2010-06-07, 06:54 AM

Quote:

This modification is being touted as the latest and greatest, but it doesn't look like it's ready for prime time. Or is it?

The single bay versions above with the 3 NAROD reflectors and the Top Hat NARODs are. Those will give superior single bay vhf-hi and uhf performance.

The double bay versions still need to be worked out. Keep in mind, the double bay versions are just 2 single bay versions with a phasing line. Youre quite safe in building a single bay version now and turning it into a double bay later.

stampeder · 2010-06-07, 10:25 AM

Karyudo's TVFool info: http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...&postcount=308

I'm guessing that one of these Top Hats with NARODs should have a good chance at most of the SeaTac stations with your area being so close to the Burnaby South Slopes.

but you may need to go the DBGH route and put it on a roof top or tower.

2010-06-06, 07:54 AM	#32
300ohm Veteran Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Somewhere in Delaware on the flat side Posts: 7,011	Ill need to do more work on the double bay version of the orig GH6 with top hat NARODs and 6 NAROD reflectors. So far, Ive only gotten it to peak at 11.59 dbi with a SWR of 2.23. Not an improvement in peak gain over what I originally had here on post #20: http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...t=99907&page=2 I was hoping for more with the 2 extra NAROD reflectors because the single bay version looked so promising. The law of marginal utility of NAROD reflectors kicking in ?? The gain and SWR curves are smoother though, and the channel 13 gain is up about a db. __________________ My builds/plans (not the latest models) are located here.

2010-06-07, 06:22 AM	#43
300ohm Veteran Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Somewhere in Delaware on the flat side Posts: 7,011	I have simple step by step instructions for getting measurements from NEC data here: http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=107457 With the multitude of antenna models on this site, it becomes an impossibility to do CAD drawings of all of them. And 4nec2 already has a pretty nice way of displaying the models. __________________ My builds/plans (not the latest models) are located here.

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2010-06-05, 12:52 PM	#31
300ohm Veteran Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Somewhere in Delaware on the flat side Posts: 7,011	Looks good, looks like I expected, and the dip is minimized. It will be interesting to see how much less JEDs GH4 version will produce. The GH4 would be the easier build and still about 75 inches tall by 38 inches wide in the double bay version. On another note, I replaced the 3 NAROD reflectors of the model in post #19 with a 32 X 36 inch, 2" X 4" mesh thinking that if 3 reflectors are better than 2, then 4 are better than 3 etc and mesh should be best, heh. CM model segmentation is derived from autosegmentation 22 at 800Mhz CM for VHF AGT of 1 set the radius multiplier of the souce wire to 1 CE GW 1 23 0 -2.9724409 0 0 -8.0948031 5.12237008 0.125 GW 2 25 0 -8.0948031 5.12237008 0 -2.3878346 10.8293622 0.125 GW 3 21 0 -2.3878346 10.8293622 0 -7.1483071 15.5898268 0.125 GW 4 15 0 -7.1483071 15.5898268 0 -12.030197 15.5898268 0.125 GW 5 39 -2.952756 0.8661417 3.3464567 -2.952756 13.543307 3.3464567 0.125 GW 6 39 -2.952756 1.4173228 11.771654 -2.952756 14.330709 11.771654 0.125 GW 7 37 -2.952756 1.9488189 23.228346 -2.952756 14.232283 23.228346 0.125 GW 11 7 0 -7.8949606 18.1244488 0 -7.8949606 15.9773622 0.125 GW 14 15 0 -7.8949606 15.9773622 0 -12.93937 15.9773622 0.125 GW 21 23 0 2.97244094 0 0 8.09480315 5.12237008 0.125 GW 22 25 0 8.09480315 5.12237008 0 2.38783465 10.8293622 0.125 GW 23 21 0 2.38783465 10.8293622 0 7.14830709 15.5898268 0.125 GW 24 15 0 7.14830709 15.5898268 0 12.0301969 15.5898268 0.125 GW 25 39 -2.952756 -0.866142 3.3464567 -2.952756 -13.54331 3.3464567 0.125 GW 26 39 -2.952756 -1.417323 11.771654 -2.952756 -14.33071 11.771654 0.125 GW 27 37 -2.952756 -1.948819 23.228346 -2.952756 -14.23228 23.228346 0.125 GW 31 7 0 7.89496063 18.1244488 0 7.89496063 15.9773622 0.125 GW 34 15 0 7.89496063 15.9773622 0 12.9393701 15.9773622 0.125 GW 10 51 0 7.89496063 18.1244488 0 -7.8949606 18.1244488 0.125 GW 41 23 0 -2.9724409 0 0 -8.0948031 -5.1223701 0.125 GW 42 25 0 -8.0948031 -5.1223701 0 -2.3878346 -10.829362 0.125 GW 43 21 0 -2.3878346 -10.829362 0 -7.1483071 -15.589827 0.125 GW 44 15 0 -7.1483071 -15.589827 0 -12.030197 -15.589827 0.125 GW 45 39 -2.952756 0.8661417 -3.346457 -2.952756 13.543307 -3.346457 0.125 GW 46 39 -2.952756 1.4173228 -11.77165 -2.952756 14.330709 -11.77165 0.125 GW 47 37 -2.952756 1.9488189 -23.22835 -2.952756 14.232283 -23.22835 0.125 GW 51 7 0 -7.8949606 -18.124449 0 -7.8949606 -15.977362 0.125 GW 54 15 0 -7.8949606 -15.977362 0 -12.93937 -15.977362 0.125 GW 61 23 0 2.97244094 0 0 8.09480315 -5.1223701 0.125 GW 62 25 0 8.09480315 -5.1223701 0 2.38783465 -10.829362 0.125 GW 63 21 0 2.38783465 -10.829362 0 7.14830709 -15.589827 0.125 GW 64 15 0 7.14830709 -15.589827 0 12.0301969 -15.589827 0.125 GW 65 39 -2.952756 -0.866142 -3.346457 -2.952756 -13.54331 -3.346457 0.125 GW 66 39 -2.952756 -1.417323 -11.77165 -2.952756 -14.33071 -11.77165 0.125 GW 67 37 -2.952756 -1.948819 -23.22835 -2.952756 -14.23228 -23.22835 0.125 GW 71 7 0 7.89496063 -18.124449 0 7.89496063 -15.977362 0.125 GW 74 15 0 7.89496063 -15.977362 0 12.9393701 -15.977362 0.125 GW 50 51 0 7.89496063 -18.124449 0 -7.8949606 -18.124449 0.125 GW 100 17 0 -2.9724409 0 0 2.97244094 0 0.10843701 GW 101 13 -12 -16 18 -12 -12 18 0.05094856 GW 102 13 -12 -12 18 -12 -8 18 0.05094856 GW 103 13 -12 -8 18 -12 -4 18 0.05094856 GW 104 13 -12 -4 18 -12 0 18 0.05094856 GW 105 13 -12 0 18 -12 4 18 0.05094856 GW 106 13 -12 4 18 -12 8 18 0.05094856 GW 107 13 -12 8 18 -12 12 18 0.05094856 GW 108 13 -12 12 18 -12 16 18 0.05094856 GW 109 7 -12 -16 18 -12 -16 16 0.05094856 GW 110 7 -12 -12 18 -12 -12 16 0.05094856 GW 111 7 -12 -8 18 -12 -8 16 0.05094856 GW 112 7 -12 -4 18 -12 -4 16 0.05094856 GW 113 7 -12 0 18 -12 0 16 0.05094856 GW 114 7 -12 4 18 -12 4 16 0.05094856 GW 115 7 -12 8 18 -12 8 16 0.05094856 GW 116 7 -12 12 18 -12 12 16 0.05094856 GW 117 7 -12 16 18 -12 16 16 0.05094856 GW 118 13 -12 -16 16 -12 -12 16 0.05094856 GW 119 13 -12 -12 16 -12 -8 16 0.05094856 GW 120 13 -12 -8 16 -12 -4 16 0.05094856 GW 121 13 -12 -4 16 -12 0 16 0.05094856 GW 122 13 -12 0 16 -12 4 16 0.05094856 GW 123 13 -12 4 16 -12 8 16 0.05094856 GW 124 13 -12 8 16 -12 12 16 0.05094856 GW 125 13 -12 12 16 -12 16 16 0.05094856 GW 126 7 -12 -16 16 -12 -16 14 0.05094856 GW 127 7 -12 -12 16 -12 -12 14 0.05094856 GW 128 7 -12 -8 16 -12 -8 14 0.05094856 GW 129 7 -12 -4 16 -12 -4 14 0.05094856 GW 130 7 -12 0 16 -12 0 14 0.05094856 GW 131 7 -12 4 16 -12 4 14 0.05094856 GW 132 7 -12 8 16 -12 8 14 0.05094856 GW 133 7 -12 12 16 -12 12 14 0.05094856 GW 134 7 -12 16 16 -12 16 14 0.05094856 GW 135 13 -12 -16 14 -12 -12 14 0.05094856 GW 136 13 -12 -12 14 -12 -8 14 0.05094856 GW 137 13 -12 -8 14 -12 -4 14 0.05094856 GW 138 13 -12 -4 14 -12 0 14 0.05094856 GW 139 13 -12 0 14 -12 4 14 0.05094856 GW 140 13 -12 4 14 -12 8 14 0.05094856 GW 141 13 -12 8 14 -12 12 14 0.05094856 GW 142 13 -12 12 14 -12 16 14 0.05094856 GW 143 7 -12 -16 14 -12 -16 12 0.05094856 GW 144 7 -12 -12 14 -12 -12 12 0.05094856 GW 145 7 -12 -8 14 -12 -8 12 0.05094856 GW 146 7 -12 -4 14 -12 -4 12 0.05094856 GW 147 7 -12 0 14 -12 0 12 0.05094856 GW 148 7 -12 4 14 -12 4 12 0.05094856 GW 149 7 -12 8 14 -12 8 12 0.05094856 GW 150 7 -12 12 14 -12 12 12 0.05094856 GW 151 7 -12 16 14 -12 16 12 0.05094856 GW 152 13 -12 -16 12 -12 -12 12 0.05094856 GW 153 13 -12 -12 12 -12 -8 12 0.05094856 GW 154 13 -12 -8 12 -12 -4 12 0.05094856 GW 155 13 -12 -4 12 -12 0 12 0.05094856 GW 156 13 -12 0 12 -12 4 12 0.05094856 GW 157 13 -12 4 12 -12 8 12 0.05094856 GW 158 13 -12 8 12 -12 12 12 0.05094856 GW 159 13 -12 12 12 -12 16 12 0.05094856 GW 160 7 -12 -16 12 -12 -16 10 0.05094856 GW 161 7 -12 -12 12 -12 -12 10 0.05094856 GW 162 7 -12 -8 12 -12 -8 10 0.05094856 GW 163 7 -12 -4 12 -12 -4 10 0.05094856 GW 164 7 -12 0 12 -12 0 10 0.05094856 GW 165 7 -12 4 12 -12 4 10 0.05094856 GW 166 7 -12 8 12 -12 8 10 0.05094856 GW 167 7 -12 12 12 -12 12 10 0.05094856 GW 168 7 -12 16 12 -12 16 10 0.05094856 GW 169 13 -12 -16 10 -12 -12 10 0.05094856 GW 170 13 -12 -12 10 -12 -8 10 0.05094856 GW 171 13 -12 -8 10 -12 -4 10 0.05094856 GW 172 13 -12 -4 10 -12 0 10 0.05094856 GW 173 13 -12 0 10 -12 4 10 0.05094856 GW 174 13 -12 4 10 -12 8 10 0.05094856 GW 175 13 -12 8 10 -12 12 10 0.05094856 GW 176 13 -12 12 10 -12 16 10 0.05094856 GW 177 7 -12 -16 10 -12 -16 8 0.05094856 GW 178 7 -12 -12 10 -12 -12 8 0.05094856 GW 179 7 -12 -8 10 -12 -8 8 0.05094856 GW 180 7 -12 -4 10 -12 -4 8 0.05094856 GW 181 7 -12 0 10 -12 0 8 0.05094856 GW 182 7 -12 4 10 -12 4 8 0.05094856 GW 183 7 -12 8 10 -12 8 8 0.05094856 GW 184 7 -12 12 10 -12 12 8 0.05094856 GW 185 7 -12 16 10 -12 16 8 0.05094856 GW 186 13 -12 -16 8 -12 -12 8 0.05094856 GW 187 13 -12 -12 8 -12 -8 8 0.05094856 GW 188 13 -12 -8 8 -12 -4 8 0.05094856 GW 189 13 -12 -4 8 -12 0 8 0.05094856 GW 190 13 -12 0 8 -12 4 8 0.05094856 GW 191 13 -12 4 8 -12 8 8 0.05094856 GW 192 13 -12 8 8 -12 12 8 0.05094856 GW 193 13 -12 12 8 -12 16 8 0.05094856 GW 194 7 -12 -16 8 -12 -16 6 0.05094856 GW 195 7 -12 -12 8 -12 -12 6 0.05094856 GW 196 7 -12 -8 8 -12 -8 6 0.05094856 GW 197 7 -12 -4 8 -12 -4 6 0.05094856 GW 198 7 -12 0 8 -12 0 6 0.05094856 GW 199 7 -12 4 8 -12 4 6 0.05094856 GW 200 7 -12 8 8 -12 8 6 0.05094856 GW 201 7 -12 12 8 -12 12 6 0.05094856 GW 202 7 -12 16 8 -12 16 6 0.05094856 GW 203 13 -12 -16 6 -12 -12 6 0.05094856 GW 204 13 -12 -12 6 -12 -8 6 0.05094856 GW 205 13 -12 -8 6 -12 -4 6 0.05094856 GW 206 13 -12 -4 6 -12 0 6 0.05094856 GW 207 13 -12 0 6 -12 4 6 0.05094856 GW 208 13 -12 4 6 -12 8 6 0.05094856 GW 209 13 -12 8 6 -12 12 6 0.05094856 GW 210 13 -12 12 6 -12 16 6 0.05094856 GW 211 7 -12 -16 6 -12 -16 4 0.05094856 GW 212 7 -12 -12 6 -12 -12 4 0.05094856 GW 213 7 -12 -8 6 -12 -8 4 0.05094856 GW 214 7 -12 -4 6 -12 -4 4 0.05094856 GW 215 7 -12 0 6 -12 0 4 0.05094856 GW 216 7 -12 4 6 -12 4 4 0.05094856 GW 217 7 -12 8 6 -12 8 4 0.05094856 GW 218 7 -12 12 6 -12 12 4 0.05094856 GW 219 7 -12 16 6 -12 16 4 0.05094856 GW 220 13 -12 -16 4 -12 -12 4 0.05094856 GW 221 13 -12 -12 4 -12 -8 4 0.05094856 GW 222 13 -12 -8 4 -12 -4 4 0.05094856 GW 223 13 -12 -4 4 -12 0 4 0.05094856 GW 224 13 -12 0 4 -12 4 4 0.05094856 GW 225 13 -12 4 4 -12 8 4 0.05094856 GW 226 13 -12 8 4 -12 12 4 0.05094856 GW 227 13 -12 12 4 -12 16 4 0.05094856 GW 228 7 -12 -16 4 -12 -16 2 0.05094856 GW 229 7 -12 -12 4 -12 -12 2 0.05094856 GW 230 7 -12 -8 4 -12 -8 2 0.05094856 GW 231 7 -12 -4 4 -12 -4 2 0.05094856 GW 232 7 -12 0 4 -12 0 2 0.05094856 GW 233 7 -12 4 4 -12 4 2 0.05094856 GW 234 7 -12 8 4 -12 8 2 0.05094856 GW 235 7 -12 12 4 -12 12 2 0.05094856 GW 236 7 -12 16 4 -12 16 2 0.05094856 GW 237 13 -12 -16 2 -12 -12 2 0.05094856 GW 238 13 -12 -12 2 -12 -8 2 0.05094856 GW 239 13 -12 -8 2 -12 -4 2 0.05094856 GW 240 13 -12 -4 2 -12 0 2 0.05094856 GW 241 13 -12 0 2 -12 4 2 0.05094856 GW 242 13 -12 4 2 -12 8 2 0.05094856 GW 243 13 -12 8 2 -12 12 2 0.05094856 GW 244 13 -12 12 2 -12 16 2 0.05094856 GW 245 7 -12 -16 2 -12 -16 -1.311e-14 0.05094856 GW 246 7 -12 -12 2 -12 -12 -1.311e-14 0.05094856 GW 247 7 -12 -8 2 -12 -8 -1.311e-14 0.05094856 GW 248 7 -12 -4 2 -12 -4 -1.311e-14 0.05094856 GW 249 7 -12 0 2 -12 0 -1.311e-14 0.05094856 GW 250 7 -12 4 2 -12 4 -1.311e-14 0.05094856 GW 251 7 -12 8 2 -12 8 -1.311e-14 0.05094856 GW 252 7 -12 12 2 -12 12 -1.311e-14 0.05094856 GW 253 7 -12 16 2 -12 16 -1.311e-14 0.05094856 GW 254 13 -12 -16 -1.311e-14 -12 -12 -1.311e-14 0.05094856 GW 255 13 -12 -12 -1.311e-14 -12 -8 -1.311e-14 0.05094856 GW 256 13 -12 -8 -1.311e-14 -12 -4 -1.311e-14 0.05094856 GW 257 13 -12 -4 -1.311e-14 -12 0 -1.311e-14 0.05094856 GW 258 13 -12 0 -1.311e-14 -12 4 -1.311e-14 0.05094856 GW 259 13 -12 4 -1.311e-14 -12 8 -1.311e-14 0.05094856 GW 260 13 -12 8 -1.311e-14 -12 12 -1.311e-14 0.05094856 GW 261 13 -12 12 -1.311e-14 -12 16 -1.311e-14 0.05094856 GW 262 7 -12 -16 -1.311e-14 -12 -16 -2 0.05094856 GW 263 7 -12 -12 -1.311e-14 -12 -12 -2 0.05094856 GW 264 7 -12 -8 -1.311e-14 -12 -8 -2 0.05094856 GW 265 7 -12 -4 -1.311e-14 -12 -4 -2 0.05094856 GW 266 7 -12 0 -1.311e-14 -12 0 -2 0.05094856 GW 267 7 -12 4 -1.311e-14 -12 4 -2 0.05094856 GW 268 7 -12 8 -1.311e-14 -12 8 -2 0.05094856 GW 269 7 -12 12 -1.311e-14 -12 12 -2 0.05094856 GW 270 7 -12 16 -1.311e-14 -12 16 -2 0.05094856 GW 271 13 -12 -16 -2 -12 -12 -2 0.05094856 GW 272 13 -12 -12 -2 -12 -8 -2 0.05094856 GW 273 13 -12 -8 -2 -12 -4 -2 0.05094856 GW 274 13 -12 -4 -2 -12 0 -2 0.05094856 GW 275 13 -12 0 -2 -12 4 -2 0.05094856 GW 276 13 -12 4 -2 -12 8 -2 0.05094856 GW 277 13 -12 8 -2 -12 12 -2 0.05094856 GW 278 13 -12 12 -2 -12 16 -2 0.05094856 GW 279 7 -12 -16 -2 -12 -16 -4 0.05094856 GW 280 7 -12 -12 -2 -12 -12 -4 0.05094856 GW 281 7 -12 -8 -2 -12 -8 -4 0.05094856 GW 282 7 -12 -4 -2 -12 -4 -4 0.05094856 GW 283 7 -12 0 -2 -12 0 -4 0.05094856 GW 284 7 -12 4 -2 -12 4 -4 0.05094856 GW 285 7 -12 8 -2 -12 8 -4 0.05094856 GW 286 7 -12 12 -2 -12 12 -4 0.05094856 GW 287 7 -12 16 -2 -12 16 -4 0.05094856 GW 288 13 -12 -16 -4 -12 -12 -4 0.05094856 GW 289 13 -12 -12 -4 -12 -8 -4 0.05094856 GW 290 13 -12 -8 -4 -12 -4 -4 0.05094856 GW 291 13 -12 -4 -4 -12 0 -4 0.05094856 GW 292 13 -12 0 -4 -12 4 -4 0.05094856 GW 293 13 -12 4 -4 -12 8 -4 0.05094856 GW 294 13 -12 8 -4 -12 12 -4 0.05094856 GW 295 13 -12 12 -4 -12 16 -4 0.05094856 GW 296 7 -12 -16 -4 -12 -16 -6 0.05094856 GW 297 7 -12 -12 -4 -12 -12 -6 0.05094856 GW 298 7 -12 -8 -4 -12 -8 -6 0.05094856 GW 299 7 -12 -4 -4 -12 -4 -6 0.05094856 GW 300 7 -12 0 -4 -12 0 -6 0.05094856 GW 301 7 -12 4 -4 -12 4 -6 0.05094856 GW 302 7 -12 8 -4 -12 8 -6 0.05094856 GW 303 7 -12 12 -4 -12 12 -6 0.05094856 GW 304 7 -12 16 -4 -12 16 -6 0.05094856 GW 305 13 -12 -16 -6 -12 -12 -6 0.05094856 GW 306 13 -12 -12 -6 -12 -8 -6 0.05094856 GW 307 13 -12 -8 -6 -12 -4 -6 0.05094856 GW 308 13 -12 -4 -6 -12 0 -6 0.05094856 GW 309 13 -12 0 -6 -12 4 -6 0.05094856 GW 310 13 -12 4 -6 -12 8 -6 0.05094856 GW 311 13 -12 8 -6 -12 12 -6 0.05094856 GW 312 13 -12 12 -6 -12 16 -6 0.05094856 GW 313 7 -12 -16 -6 -12 -16 -8 0.05094856 GW 314 7 -12 -12 -6 -12 -12 -8 0.05094856 GW 315 7 -12 -8 -6 -12 -8 -8 0.05094856 GW 316 7 -12 -4 -6 -12 -4 -8 0.05094856 GW 317 7 -12 0 -6 -12 0 -8 0.05094856 GW 318 7 -12 4 -6 -12 4 -8 0.05094856 GW 319 7 -12 8 -6 -12 8 -8 0.05094856 GW 320 7 -12 12 -6 -12 12 -8 0.05094856 GW 321 7 -12 16 -6 -12 16 -8 0.05094856 GW 322 13 -12 -16 -8 -12 -12 -8 0.05094856 GW 323 13 -12 -12 -8 -12 -8 -8 0.05094856 GW 324 13 -12 -8 -8 -12 -4 -8 0.05094856 GW 325 13 -12 -4 -8 -12 0 -8 0.05094856 GW 326 13 -12 0 -8 -12 4 -8 0.05094856 GW 327 13 -12 4 -8 -12 8 -8 0.05094856 GW 328 13 -12 8 -8 -12 12 -8 0.05094856 GW 329 13 -12 12 -8 -12 16 -8 0.05094856 GW 330 7 -12 -16 -8 -12 -16 -10 0.05094856 GW 331 7 -12 -12 -8 -12 -12 -10 0.05094856 GW 332 7 -12 -8 -8 -12 -8 -10 0.05094856 GW 333 7 -12 -4 -8 -12 -4 -10 0.05094856 GW 334 7 -12 0 -8 -12 0 -10 0.05094856 GW 335 7 -12 4 -8 -12 4 -10 0.05094856 GW 336 7 -12 8 -8 -12 8 -10 0.05094856 GW 337 7 -12 12 -8 -12 12 -10 0.05094856 GW 338 7 -12 16 -8 -12 16 -10 0.05094856 GW 339 13 -12 -16 -10 -12 -12 -10 0.05094856 GW 340 13 -12 -12 -10 -12 -8 -10 0.05094856 GW 341 13 -12 -8 -10 -12 -4 -10 0.05094856 GW 342 13 -12 -4 -10 -12 0 -10 0.05094856 GW 343 13 -12 0 -10 -12 4 -10 0.05094856 GW 344 13 -12 4 -10 -12 8 -10 0.05094856 GW 345 13 -12 8 -10 -12 12 -10 0.05094856 GW 346 13 -12 12 -10 -12 16 -10 0.05094856 GW 347 7 -12 -16 -10 -12 -16 -12 0.05094856 GW 348 7 -12 -12 -10 -12 -12 -12 0.05094856 GW 349 7 -12 -8 -10 -12 -8 -12 0.05094856 GW 350 7 -12 -4 -10 -12 -4 -12 0.05094856 GW 351 7 -12 0 -10 -12 0 -12 0.05094856 GW 352 7 -12 4 -10 -12 4 -12 0.05094856 GW 353 7 -12 8 -10 -12 8 -12 0.05094856 GW 354 7 -12 12 -10 -12 12 -12 0.05094856 GW 355 7 -12 16 -10 -12 16 -12 0.05094856 GW 356 13 -12 -16 -12 -12 -12 -12 0.05094856 GW 357 13 -12 -12 -12 -12 -8 -12 0.05094856 GW 358 13 -12 -8 -12 -12 -4 -12 0.05094856 GW 359 13 -12 -4 -12 -12 0 -12 0.05094856 GW 360 13 -12 0 -12 -12 4 -12 0.05094856 GW 361 13 -12 4 -12 -12 8 -12 0.05094856 GW 362 13 -12 8 -12 -12 12 -12 0.05094856 GW 363 13 -12 12 -12 -12 16 -12 0.05094856 GW 364 7 -12 -16 -12 -12 -16 -14 0.05094856 GW 365 7 -12 -12 -12 -12 -12 -14 0.05094856 GW 366 7 -12 -8 -12 -12 -8 -14 0.05094856 GW 367 7 -12 -4 -12 -12 -4 -14 0.05094856 GW 368 7 -12 0 -12 -12 0 -14 0.05094856 GW 369 7 -12 4 -12 -12 4 -14 0.05094856 GW 370 7 -12 8 -12 -12 8 -14 0.05094856 GW 371 7 -12 12 -12 -12 12 -14 0.05094856 GW 372 7 -12 16 -12 -12 16 -14 0.05094856 GW 373 13 -12 -16 -14 -12 -12 -14 0.05094856 GW 374 13 -12 -12 -14 -12 -8 -14 0.05094856 GW 375 13 -12 -8 -14 -12 -4 -14 0.05094856 GW 376 13 -12 -4 -14 -12 0 -14 0.05094856 GW 377 13 -12 0 -14 -12 4 -14 0.05094856 GW 378 13 -12 4 -14 -12 8 -14 0.05094856 GW 379 13 -12 8 -14 -12 12 -14 0.05094856 GW 380 13 -12 12 -14 -12 16 -14 0.05094856 GW 381 7 -12 -16 -14 -12 -16 -16 0.05094856 GW 382 7 -12 -12 -14 -12 -12 -16 0.05094856 GW 383 7 -12 -8 -14 -12 -8 -16 0.05094856 GW 384 7 -12 -4 -14 -12 -4 -16 0.05094856 GW 385 7 -12 0 -14 -12 0 -16 0.05094856 GW 386 7 -12 4 -14 -12 4 -16 0.05094856 GW 387 7 -12 8 -14 -12 8 -16 0.05094856 GW 388 7 -12 12 -14 -12 12 -16 0.05094856 GW 389 7 -12 16 -14 -12 16 -16 0.05094856 GW 390 13 -12 -16 -16 -12 -12 -16 0.05094856 GW 391 13 -12 -12 -16 -12 -8 -16 0.05094856 GW 392 13 -12 -8 -16 -12 -4 -16 0.05094856 GW 393 13 -12 -4 -16 -12 0 -16 0.05094856 GW 394 13 -12 0 -16 -12 4 -16 0.05094856 GW 395 13 -12 4 -16 -12 8 -16 0.05094856 GW 396 13 -12 8 -16 -12 12 -16 0.05094856 GW 397 13 -12 12 -16 -12 16 -16 0.05094856 GW 398 7 -12 -16 -16 -12 -16 -18 0.05094856 GW 399 7 -12 -12 -16 -12 -12 -18 0.05094856 GW 400 7 -12 -8 -16 -12 -8 -18 0.05094856 GW 401 7 -12 -4 -16 -12 -4 -18 0.05094856 GW 402 7 -12 0 -16 -12 0 -18 0.05094856 GW 403 7 -12 4 -16 -12 4 -18 0.05094856 GW 404 7 -12 8 -16 -12 8 -18 0.05094856 GW 405 7 -12 12 -16 -12 12 -18 0.05094856 GW 406 7 -12 16 -16 -12 16 -18 0.05094856 GW 407 13 -12 -16 -18 -12 -12 -18 0.05094856 GW 408 13 -12 -12 -18 -12 -8 -18 0.05094856 GW 409 13 -12 -8 -18 -12 -4 -18 0.05094856 GW 410 13 -12 -4 -18 -12 0 -18 0.05094856 GW 411 13 -12 0 -18 -12 4 -18 0.05094856 GW 412 13 -12 4 -18 -12 8 -18 0.05094856 GW 413 13 -12 8 -18 -12 12 -18 0.05094856 GW 414 13 -12 12 -18 -12 16 -18 0.05094856 GS 0 0 0.0254 ' All in in. GE 0 EK LD 5 0 0 0 2.49e7 0 EX 0 100 9 0 1 0 GN -1 FR 0 1 0 0 800 0 RP 0 60 73 1001 0 0 3 5 Bottom line, not good. While VHF-Hi wasnt hurt too badly, it did a real number on UHF. Rods are definately best for this application, heh. __________________ My builds/plans (not the latest models) are located here.

2010-06-06, 12:38 PM	#35
nikiml Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: mississauga, ON Posts: 721	Well, the sweeps, even when autosegmentation is used, are done with the same segmentation for all frequencies. I chose this one segmentation to be the one that the autosegmentation generates at 800Mhz with 22 seg per half-wave. I then fix this segmentation into the nec file, turn the autosegmentation off and I do AGT test at 174, 195, 216, 470, 585 and 710 Mhz. If you use autosegmentation 22 for the AGT test you'll get quite different results, because for every frequency a different segmentation will be used.

2010-06-07, 01:46 AM	#42
Karyudo Rookie Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Burnaby, BC Posts: 23	I live near Vancouver, BC. I want to build a DBGH with the best possible performance. I have the time, patience, and skill to build a DBGH, and I may even have the time, patience, and skill to figure out how to hold all the antenna elements in the right places -- but I have no interest whatsoever in figuring out where those places are (i.e. computer modelling, or manually translating 3-D coordinates into build dimensions). This modification is being touted as the latest and greatest, but it doesn't look like it's ready for prime time. Or is it? Where can I find build plans to work from? Or, where is there a tool to turn all the columns of NEC numbers into real-world dimensions? In the absence of any other information, what are the rules of thumb for expanding a SBGH into a DBGH?

2010-06-07, 10:25 AM	#45
stampeder OTA Forum Moderator Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: North Delta, BC (96Av x 116St) Posts: 23,338	Karyudo's TVFool info: http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...&postcount=308 I'm guessing that one of these Top Hats with NARODs should have a good chance at most of the SeaTac stations with your area being so close to the Burnaby South Slopes. but you may need to go the DBGH route and put it on a roof top or tower.