heating costs-hydro vs propane

[Glastain]

We recently moved from Brockville to a rural home. We are now on hydro meter and last month our hydro bill was a whopping $415. Our rural house is heated by geothermal and we also have a Regency propane gas fireplace that we occasionally use.
I am retired and can't afford these exhorbitant hydro costs. We have the daytime thermostat set at 69 and overnight at 62. We wear sweaters in the house and use the oven/dryer mainly on weekends.

I have noticed that the Geothermal fan kicks in in the middle of the night in order to get up to 69 by 6am.

What can we do to to reduce our hydro/heating costs? Specifically should we switch to a propane furnace or replace our old electric stove/dryer to propane, as the previous owners did (gas lines were capped when we moved in) ?
Would appreciate any advice.

[38racing]

Sounds really high if you have geothermal. First check the meter reading on the meter and your bill and see if the bill one is consistent. I spoke to a friend last night who lives near me whose setup for everything is like me and just 2 in the house. Normal hydro is 120-140. He just got a bill for over $500. We have smart meters which are sending the readings but we are not Time-of-Use until February. I expect hydro's billing system is screwing things up or the smart meter is screwing up the reading it sends.
I've been using electric heat recently while converting from oil to natural gas. I just did the numbers and expect my next bill to be $300 for the month.
Having just done the conversion my research shows propane is almost as expensive as electricity for heating.
Is it possible your geothermal is not working right and you are always using an electric backup ?

[Jase88]

I don't recommend hydro heating to anyone in Ontario. Ontario is moving towards Time of Use (TOU) billing in the very near future. Many areas are already on TOU (parts of Toronto, for example). Heating with hydro during peak hours will become very costly.

Have you considered installed a wood air tight stove? This may be a good solution in conjunction with propane.

[Glastain]

Thanks for the feedback. We are already on time of use and why we try to do many things on weekends and off-peak hours.

At my age now, I don't have the stamina to start dealing with wood burning stoves. I was told this morning that a man with a similar size house put in a state of the art geothermal system that also heats his hot water tank. Yet, last month he still paid $468 in hydro!!!

I was advised to not have such a disparity between daytime setting at 69 and nightime at 62, as the geothermal system is using a lot of hydro energy with the fan going from middle of the night in order to bring the house temperature to 69 by 6am.

I also spoke this morning to our propane gas supplier and they recommended switching over to propane stove/dryer and to utilize our existing gas fireplace more often as, in their opinion, it will prove cheaper that hydro. They may be biased, so how do I validate their assertion?

Thanks again

[txv]

Get the ground source heatpump checked - if there's a problem, it could be running mostly on strip heat.

A Ground source heatpump is the best heating system money can buy; they are very economical to operate compared to 100% electric resistance heat (1/2-1/3 the cost) and propane furnaces - do not even consider switching.

We are now on hydro meter and last month our hydro bill was a whopping $415.

What's the billing period?

Are you using electricity to heat water? (if yes, how? A standard electric tank can add 20+ kwh per day to the bill)

Does the bill include water?

How much is the bill when the heating system isn't on?

What kind of house is the system heating?

I also spoke this morning to our propane gas supplier and they recommended switching over to propane stove/dryer and to utilize our existing gas fireplace more often as, in their opinion, it will prove cheaper that hydro. They may be biased, so how do I validate their assertion?

Post electricity price, rated COP of heatpump, and delivered propane price.

I was advised to not have such a disparity between daytime setting at 69 and nightime at 62, as the geothermal system is using a lot of hydro energy with the fan going from middle of the night in order to bring the house temperature to 69 by 6am.

That's part of the problem.

If your system has electric backup, set it and forget it - programmable t-stats and heatpumps do not mix.

[txv]

Originally Posted by Jase88

I don't recommend hydro heating to anyone in Ontario. Ontario is moving towards Time of Use (TOU) billing in the very near future. Many areas are already on TOU (parts of Toronto, for example). Heating with hydro during peak hours will become very costly.

Have you considered installed a wood air tight stove? This may be a good solution in conjunction with propane.

a) Google < ground source heatpump coefficient of performance>.
b) Hydro on TOU is cheapest at night*, when the heating load is the greatest - it should balance out
*Lower than the RPP price of 6.4 cents per kwh + delivery

[Glastain]

Thanks TXV for your detailed response. By way of reply to your questions, the following additional info is provided.
a. We have a geothermal heat pump with a closed loop through the well.
b. Hydro billing period for aforementioned cost was for 29 days from Nov 17-Dec 16, 2010.
c. The hot water tank is heated by propane.
d. We are on a well.
e. Hydro usage averaged 95KWH daily during above period, as compared to daily average of 58KWH during the July 19-Aug 17 , 2010 period (note that pool pump was on 24/7 and AC used as needed)
f. Our house is a 2700 sqft single story with the basement built at ground level on bedrock
g. I am not sure how the following info is used to compare the energy costs when different factors are used (KWH/Litres/BTU/COP)
-Electricity price is quoted as 9.9 cent per KWH at peak, 8.1 mid peak and 5.1 off peak. During the Nov-Dec period we consumed a total of 2,746 KWH at a total cost of $415.81 (HST incl.) thereby costing an average of 6.6 cent per KWH.
-The rated C.O.P for the Climate Master GeoThermal Pump is 2.9 for the closed loop system (also stated on the furnace label is a rating of 42,000BTU).
-Propane cost delivered is 79 cent per litre (HST incl.)

[txv]

Single story houses require more heat than their two story counterparts, square footage being equal.

Your electricity consumption may not be out of line even though it's on the side side. Keep in mind that $100 - 200 of the bill could be attributed to other electrical loads and possibly water (some utilities such as powerstream bill for water on behalf of the municipality); electricity per unit of energy (HP provided 3 units of heat per unit of hydro consumed) is far more expensive than fossil fuel.

How many kwhs per day does the house use when with no a/c or pool pump running?

With a COP of around 3 (low by today's standards), at current electricity prices (distribution charges included, not just generation) your system should cost more to operate than a high efficiency nat gas furnace, but a little less than a standard electric or propane system.

Electricity price is quoted as 9.9 cent per KWH at peak, 8.1 mid peak and 5.1 off peak. During the Nov-Dec period we consumed a total of 2,746 KWH at a total cost of $415.81 (HST incl.) thereby costing an average of 6.6 cent per KWH.

That doesn't sound right.

Is water included on the bill?

Electricity (ontario) should be costing you 9-15 cents per kwh depending on your utility and when you use it.

Propane cost delivered is 79 cent per litre

Propane = 24 200 Btu / Liter

At 95% efficiency and 79 cents, propane costs $3.44 per 100 000 BTUs

Electricity = 3400 BTUs per kwh

@ COP 3 = $0.98 per 100 000 BTUs during off peak including all charges (10 cents)

= $1.47 per 100 000 BTUs @ on peak including all charges

*Mid peak = somewhere in the middle.

Nat gas = 36000 BTUs per m3, 24 cents

= $0.70 per 100 000 BTUs, but it's dirt cheap right now.

The case for switching from a GSHP to propane furnace can not be made.

To reduce energy costs, consider...

- Maintaining a constant temperature so the heat strips don't have to kick in to bring the temperature up. (if you insist on setting back the stat, set it to recover during the off peak period - ie 4-7am)
- Using the propane fireplace only during peak periods if it's energy efficient (many fireplaces aren't)
- Draft proofing and adding attic insulation if the house is over 20 years old.

[dns2]

"-Electricity price is quoted as 9.9 cent per KWH at peak, 8.1 mid peak and 5.1 off peak. During the Nov-Dec period we consumed a total of 2,746 KWH at a total cost of $415.81 (HST incl.) thereby costing an average of 6.6 cent per KWH."

Pay no attention to the bull,,,, numbers like 9.9 etc

Try your calculations again with real numbers. $415.81 / 2746 = 15.1 cents per kwh

Those are some unreal consumption numbers !

Woodstove time......

[GrandmaJ]

Hi Glastain, I read this post while searching "google" and had to comment.
We have been living with Geothermal now for 13 years. This is our second system. We also live in a rural community (in Dufferin county where the wind is renouned)(wind turbines going up everywhere). My hydro bill is $325.00 per month and, right now, they owe me!
I truly believe your problem here is that you are setting your furnace back at night. Once a geothermal system gets 2 degrees away from its temperature they will kick into emergency heat to get you back up (or down in the case of air conditioning) to regulate the heat. Therefore, when you set your thermostat so low at night, you are making your system work harder and probably kicking it into electric heat to get it back up. This can be solved in one of two ways, either program to bring the heat up slowly or just leave it alone.
These system are VERY efficient. There really is no need to set the temperature back at night. In fact, it is my understanding this is not recommended. Try it for a while. We pay less for heating/cooling costs than my neighbours in town, my next door neighbour with a much smaller house, etc. The $325 per month covers four adults living in a 2000 square foot house (plus walkout basement of the same). Three of us work from home and we all like hot showers. LOL
Hope this helps.

[38racing]

I assume that $325 is during the heating season or all year round?

[txv]

$325 per month is low if electric water heating and other loads is taken into acount.

Heating portion could be half of total bill.

[sugerray50]

It's been a year since you posted your original message - so you're probably not looking for input anymore. However for anyone else researching this topic - these are my thoughts.

First - how old is the system? I'm more or less referring to the heat pump because they do have a shelf life.

However, I, like other posters will agree - that it's probably the fact that your turn your thermostat down to 62 at night. Yes, we've been told all of our lives to turn the stat down at night - to save on costs. However, with geothermal - you aren't supposed to. I've been hearing the same thing from our geo guy (our new one!). Since he is so knowledgeable about geo - I tend to believe him.

2nd - have a qualified geo tech come out and check your system. Our original system was installed 4 years ago - and in that 4 years, we've paid more in heating than we did in our previous home (20 min away) - that was heated by baseboard electric heat and was 1,000 sq ft bigger. When I say we've paid more - I mean our bills have doubled. Why? Because our entire geo system was installed wrong by the original company (not the new company, tho!).

No, I'm not just talking out of my head here - we actually had an independent expert come in and write a report about our previous, malfunctioning, geo system. Why? Because we're taking the original installing company to court - our court date is February 2012. We've been going through this process for 2 years now to get to court.

From what I've learned about systems in the last 4 years (I should become geo professional - but I'm not) - if your system isn't working correctly - and there's nothing wrong with the loop, and the heat pump is fine (ie; no issues with compressors, etc) - it could be something as simple as a refrigerant leak that is causing the unit to not extract the heat correctly. I say that's an easy fix - because it's much easier than the fix we had to do (the loops were installed wrong, the ducting wasn't done right, and the heat pump was defective from day 1 )s We had to replace everything - because everything (according to more than 1 geo professional that came out AND the expert who wrote the report) was done wrong.

The last thing I would recommend - is to shut off the electric back up heat (put your breaker in the off position). If you system is running fine (ok - if you're in Ontario - probably not a good idea to do this in the coldest months as you may need the back up heat just to help out during the coldest periods) - but turn off the electric back up heat and see if your unit a) locks out... if it does (and it's not devil's cold outside) - then you may have an issue with your heat pump (speaking from experience - ours locked out more than 280 times in 3 years...). If it doesn't lock out (if it locks out - you will know it because the fans will continue to blow air from the heat pump into your house, that isn't heated - and the temperature will drop). If you shut off your electric back up heating coil - you will see a drastic drop in your hydro bill. Running the electric back up heat is like running baseboard electric heat. That's what it sounds like is happening from the amount of your bill.

So - point form:

1.) have heat pump inspected by a geo professional (ask around for geo professionals in your area

2.) If you can't find a geo person who really knows their systems - you may want to check out www.geo-exchange.ca see if you can find someone certified in geo systems.

3.) Turn off your electric heating coil back up (it's a separate breaker on your electrical panel from the heat pump).

[txv]

That's very good advice - I hope he sees this thread again.

Even when furnaces are out of whack, they still heat fine (gas pressure set wrong, blower speed set wrong, crappy ductwork) - probably in part because they're always oversized.

Heatpumps (and a/c units) on the other hand are not forgiving at all. Producing heat is so much more straight forward than moving it.

[BJM-Maxx]

Sugarray50, what was actually installed incorrectly with your system? I am contemplating building a vacation home and on top of building a very well insulated shell, I want an energy efficient HVAC system. I have been eyeing ground loop heat pumps. It seems like it would be hard to install wrong. I saw a Mike Holmes show where the loop pipes were too close to the surface.