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Tivo in Canada Discussion

105K views 330 replies 64 participants last post by  hugh 
#1 ·
The following is based on snip-its I have read over the last year and some of my thoughts.

For those of you that actually have been following the Tivo story, you will know that DirecTV and Tivo had a falling out in the USA, and that DirecTV down there is soon to release their home grown Tivo-like box. Meaning a box with no "Tivo inside". Which means Tivo's revenue will be impacted somewhat as a LOT of their boxes were DirecTV/Tivo combo units.

Word has it that DirecTV will make these new boxes VERY attractive to their customers...

My thinking is that the Tivo push into Canada will help mitigate loosing the DirecTV revenue stream. Especially when Canadians seem to enjoy more tech'y stuff in general...

Another thought is what drove the split between the DirecTV and Tivo: I think Tivo revealed to DirecTV their plans to offer a download service to their clients, on their non DirecTV boxes, that is, offering a pay-per-view like download service over the internet.

Well, this flies in the face of what DirecTV wants to do. Yep, offer a download service in their STP that will actually download the movie of choice during the night (which is easy given the tons of bandwith they have and cheap hardware today), and stored on your hard disk, for you to watch at your leisure.

Not to mention in the not to distant future, movies will be offered to all distribution mediums and venues at the SAME TIME. Movie theaters (various 'plex's), rental stores (Blockbuster/Rogers/ Hollywood Video...), purchase (WalMart, BB, FS...), Cable, Satellite (DirecTV / Dish / BEV / SC / SKY...), and Internet (Tivo, Microsoft Media Center Edition...) all on the same release date!

Obviously some market convergence going on here as we speak. Very cool! What a great time to see this all happen...

Comments?
 
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#114 ·
Megazone reports here:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showt...7&&#post4394227

that TiVo responded to his digital OTA guide data for Canada question as follows:

The TV Schedules Canadian Digital product has not been developed, so you won't see a dgcanpsiprec.txt. The digital market has not grown in Canada, like it has in the US. Currently the number of live Canadian digital feeds resides in the single digits.
While this seems like it is a no, the answer isn't at all clear to me. I responded to megazone as follows:

While I don't fully understand the specifics, I understand the answer. It appears Tribune only has info for a few markets in Canada. Given that Metro Toronto is the largest Candian market, if they have any they'd have it for Toronto. But TiVo wasn't specific as to whether they don't carry ANY Canadian info (ie: it doesn't carry data for even those feeds that Tribune supports) or whether they just don't support the entire country but do support those parts for the single digits that they do have the feed for.
So I'm at a loss for what to do. It's bad enough not having Cablecard support. Not having OTA guide data will make this a no go for me for now.

...Dale
 
#115 ·
Hi 57,
The coax cable input is split, one side going to the STB and the other directly to the TiVo pvr. This is necessary for the TiVo pvr to receive all the encoded channels, with the output from the STB being fed into the pvr via coax again. Then you can connect to the display with composite, coax or S-video from the TiVo pvr.
There is an IR cable connection from the TiVo pvr to the STB so you can use only the TiVo remote for all channel changing and recording. The STB needs to be powered ON at all times.
For HD recording perhaps it is possible. I have the TiVo set up in the bedroom for SD via the 3200 STB and I have the Rogers SA8300HD in the living room Home Theatre, so I do not need HD in the bedroom. The TiVo pvr would need an HD STB for possible HD recording, but that is something I will look at perhaps in the future. Thanks for your input, it was something I had not thought about.
 
#116 ·
The other caveat of course, is that by connecting the STB to TiVo via RF-coax, you are receiving "the worst" picture quality from the STB as well as mono sound. RF modulators in STBs are rarely stereo.

I assume there is no composite or S-videe & analogue audio INPUTS on the Tivo.
 
#121 ·
classic ... it is not theft. TiVo does not support S1 TiVo's in Canada, therefore they are not providing service to those users. It is therefore entirely legitimate for someone who owns the hardware and software to seek other means of making the unit operational.

This has been debated ad infinitum elsewhere, but everytime someone posts to suggest that using TiVo hardware/software through emulation is theft, they are wrong and are insulting well meaning, law-abiding, people. There are lots of reasons why it is not theft but mostly it is a pretty simple concept. TiVo cannot hold anyone to a licensing agreement that is completely frustrated by lack of available service. Period.
 
#122 ·
It has nothing to do with any agreement.

It has to do with the simple fact as TiVo service is in fact available to Canadians, and that Series 1s can be made to work with the service directly, with some hacks upon the users part to make it work.

For Series 2s, it would definately be theft of service, as they can openly work with the direct real service without hacking.

With that there is no reason now to use any sort of service emulator in Canada.
 
#123 ·
This subject of theft was discussed by the moderators and Hugh a few days ago. We realize that this is a bit "grey" but that this thread is "OK" as most people are legally attempting to get a service and not "stealing". Hugh made the final decision and it's his site.

Please no more discussion about whether this is theft in this thread.
 
#125 ·
No Canadian OTA guide data

Re: TiVo not supporting Canadian digital OTA guide data

I don't understand why TiVo cannot provide Canadian digital OTA guide data. As far as I have ever noticed the programming data is EXACTLY the same on analog channels as on digital channels. Even if there is the odd difference it is so rare to be insignificant. Therefore they could just use the analog guide data for the digital channel.

For example, here in Toronto they could use the guide data for CBLT (analog channel 5) for the digital version of this channel. The same for CITY, CFTO, etc. What's so hard about that?

And the Tribune data does have the digital data - I could download this data as channel 513 on Rogers (for CBLT-DT) into XMLTV via Zap2it so then why can't TiVo get this?
 
#151 ·
Re: TiVo not supporting Canadian digital OTA guide data

And the Tribune data does have the digital data - I could download this data as channel 513 on Rogers (for CBLT-DT) into XMLTV via Zap2it so then why can't TiVo get this?
TiVo doesn't do that, they take their data as provided from Tribune, and so far, Tribune doesn't provide adequate digital OTA listiongs for Canada. Any Lineup issue they relay off to Tribune. Perhaps you could work with TiVo and Tribune to make a proper Canadian OTA lineup.

It would be Tribune or some other party that would have to mix and match and make a proper lineup for digital OTA.
 
#126 · (Edited)
Shaw does not have an SD PVR.

As far as TiVo goes, an S1 or S2 TiVo is an pretty good SD solution.

However, I can't imagine a more inane purchase than an S3. For TiVo to release a standalone PVR without video/audio inputs is ridiculous. At the $899US pricepoint you can build a decent HTPC with running BeyondTV or SageTV giving you much more functionality, similar UI, and no monthly service fee. If you live in an area with much OTA HD, add a second HD tuner card and you're all set. Both Sage and BTV support at least four tuners.

With TiVo you pay for hardware and software with your initial purchase. You then pay a monthly fee for guide data, updates, and the ability to keep using the machine. With BTV or Sage you buy the software once, get everything but major release updates, and forever guide data for significantly less money. TiVo made sense when HTPC's were buggy and expensive. Now, considering what you can do for the cost of TiVo hardware and three years of licensing costs ... all the added functionality of HTPC makes it a much better solution. Before I get flamed by the TiVo fans, I have owned and used TiVo and ReplayTV in Canada. My comment is based entirely on my significant user experience with TiVO, RTV, and my HTPC. I rank TiVo as the worst of the three options.
 
#127 ·
However, I can't imagine a more inane purchase than an S3. For TiVo to release a standalone PVR without video/audio inputs is ridiculous. At the $899US pricepoint you can build a decent HTPC with running BeyondTV or SageTV giving you much more functionality, similar UI, and no monthly service fee. If you live in an area with much OTA HD, add a second HD tuner card and you're all set. Both Sage and BTV support at least four tuners.
But there is no need for inputs since the TiVo is designed to be used with digital cable and CableCard. If we could get CableCard in Canada then it would be a good option - but then we would also be able to use other upcoming devices such as the ATI OCUR.

Another reason for the lack of inputs, as I am sure you are aware, is DRM issues.
 
#128 ·
Face it, Cablecard is not coming to Canada. It is still shaky techonology and cable companies only provide it in the US because they have to. Doesn't mean they are investing any money into making them work properly.

The fact that you cannot use an external STB with a Series 3 TiVo reduces the value of the box. In Canada you are limited to OTA HD to use a Series 3. Compared to what you can do across a network with an HTPC running a mature PVR app, TiVo is archaic. ReplayTV was miles ahead of TiVo on this front and remains so (even with zero development in the past two years). S3 has no development on any of these issues. If you have cablecard, and it works, you get an HD-PVR ... for a ridiculous price and a monthly service fee ... along with a crippled box that won't let you feed an external source. DRM is out of control and I personally think TiVo took the wrong route to cripple their hardware instead of joing RTV in the fight. Had they, the result might have been different. Nevertheless, Snapstream and Sage have developed software packages with more features and equal UI to TiVo without having to deal with DRM crippled product.

Again, if your app is a simple SD PVR, TiVo is a good solution. If you have any grander ambition involving a network, web based programming, remote recording, archiving, streaming, or using internet sharing (either the RTV model or viewing DivX) ... TiVo is a distant third to other options. And that doesn't even factor HD.

On the HD side, if cable card ever comes to Canada ... as you point out, by then I'll be able to use it with PC tuner. If not, a cableco PVR is a better solution.
 
#129 ·
I agree with you for the most part which is why I have been playing around with BeyondTV for a while. But the TiVo is much more of a consumer electronics product than a PC. A TiVo "just works" and is much easier for your wife and kids to use than a PC. Eventually I can see going to having HTPCs connected to all TVs but it takes so much screwing around time on my part and there are so many things to go wrong.

By the way, I don't believe BeyondTV supports Canadian digital OTA either, at least it didn't a few months ago. I have a Hauppauge tuner that is hooked up to a Rogers STB and a Kworld HD tuner connected to an antenna. With BTV I could combine the US OTA channels with the Rogers cable channels, but there was no way to add the Canadian OTA channels as it didn't have the guide data in the database.
 
#133 ·
PVR Canada has put up this table comparing the features of the Rogers 8300 series of PVRs vs. the TiVo S2 dual-tuner unit:
This is slightly misleading in some ways. The SA8300HD is, arguably, easier to upgrade than a TiVo as you can attach an external hard drive. The table says it is not upgradable. The price comparison is not totally fair since the Rogers boxes are also digital cable boxes. If you want the same capability in a TiVo you have to add a cable STB - mind you these are just $50 nowadays, at least they are quite often. The table also claims that the TiVo has a 30 second commercial skip - it does but this is kind of a hack, not a supported feature.

But I still love my TiVos - I have two TiVos and no Rogers PVRs but I will likely get a 8300HD soon since the capability to record HD is too compelling to forego.
 
#135 ·
The other caution is that PVRCanada is in the business of selling TiVo. They are not unbiased or without self-interest. Having significant experience with TiVo, I can say that the UI and guide are better than cableco DVR's for setting recordings, but the playback UI on my Moto 6412 is every bit as good as that of TiVo. The HD picture is obviously superior and firewire capture allows me to turn a transport stream into true DVD quality files for archiving ... something that the quality of .ty files can never match (even for an SD program).
 
#139 · (Edited)
I took the plunge and purchased an S3

Well, I did it. I just placed my order with Weaknees for an S3. It seems I am the first in Canada to do so. I choose the slow-boat shipping method to save $$$ so I don't know how long it will be before it arrives. All-in, including PST, GST, shipping, brokerage, U.S./Cdn $ conversion, I expect it to cost approximately $1,100 Cdn (give or take). Note, I will use my grandfathered lifetime subscription so there should be no other subscription costs from TiVo.

FYI, Jeff Anderson at PVRCanada.com said he will likely start stocking a limited supply of S3s in the near future to serve other Canadian bleeding-edge TiVo enthusiasts.

My S3/Canadian ATSC OTA trials and tribulations are documented here.

Alas, despite the S3 being substantially crippled in Canada at the moment (no current ATSC OTA support and no cablecard functionality), the following are my reasons (in no particular order):

1 DUAL-TUNER: Dual tuning/recording from my analogue cable (and whatever manual ATSC and digital cable I can do)

2. MANUAL QAM AND ATSC OTA HD RECORING: I just had it confirmed
in this AVSForum thread that I should be able to do manual ATSC OTA HD recording with the S3. In this, and many other threads, it has been confirmed that manual QAM tuning is possible with unencrypted digital QAM stations (of which Rogers seems to provide me with 28 or so).

3. ADVANCED FEATURES: Advanced S3 features (including podcast playback - and hopefully future video-podcast support) - I'm also hopeful that TiVoCast will start to provide me with iVOD purchase options. Plus the myriad other changes from the S1 (folders, undelete, faster screens, Internet-connectivity to mother ship - NOTE: Some of this is not implemented in the S3 initial software - TiVo has indicated it will be availalbe in an update by the end of the year)

4. DIGITAL PROGRAMMING REQUIRES LESS HARD DRIVE: Any SD digital cable channels that can be recorded will take up MUCH less space on the hard drive than converted analogue recordings on my current S1s.

5. ZERO OR FEWER FORMAT CONVERSIONS: Any SD digital cable channels will, by being digital, yield a better quality picture because there will be no analogue to cable to analogue conversions. It will be a straight up digital recording.

6. COMPONENT & HDMI OUTPUTS: Currently my S1s all output to s-video for display on my HD-Plasma TV. This looks fine, but digital SD channels look, MUCH better. So any SD digital I manage to record should yield at least a marginally better picture when output through component or HDMI than is the case with my S1s output through s-video.

7. eSATA EXPANSION: Finally, no more cracking the case to expand. As external eSata drives decrease in price, the probability of my adding external drives increases. But, as it stands, the S3 drive is about 70% larger than the hard drive in my 8300 HD PVR so it should be good enough for now (especially given that I’ll be keeping the 8300 for the foreseeable future).

8. TIME SHIFT PROBLEM WITH SIMPLICITY: When the daylight savings time changes take effect next spring, Simplicity will likely not be reliable any more.

9. STABILITY: My large-storage S1 has been flakey for some time. It needs to be replaced.

10. GRANDFATHERED LIFETIME SUBSCRIPTION: I can only transfer my grandfathered lifetime subscription once. While a dual-tuner S2 would probably be the best choice for the next year or so, I despise monthly fees. So, I'd rather go through this hassle than have to abandon my lifetime subscription when I eventually move to an S3 in the future.

11. POSSIBLE RETURN TO THE U.S.: I'm perpetually on the cusp of moving back to the U.S. If/when I do, I’ll get full functionality out of this beast there.

12. I DESPISE MY SFA 8300 HD PVR: I will do almost anything to minimize my reliance on that pitiful excuse for a PVR!!!

13. BLEEDING EDGE: I don't mind being on the bleeding edge of technology and exploring the latest and greatest and, happily, money usually isn't an issue.

14. WILL STILL USE OTHER PVRs: Until the S3 can be used to record everything, I'll still have my SFA 8300 to record HD I can't record OTA and I'll keep one of the S1s to record the digital cable channels the S3 won't record.

As always, once the device arrives, as I start testing it, I'll report my findings/discoveries/problems here.

Sure would be nice if there was a separate TiVo formum on Digital Home Canada - hint, hint!!

...Dale
 
#142 ·
Dajad, I will be anxiously awaiting your reports about getting the S3 working up here. I would love to have one as well and transfer my lifetime subscription over to it. Need to determine exactly how usable it would be first.

One thing, though: Don't you have to buy the S3 directly from Tivo in order to take advantage of the lifetime subscription transfer?
 
#143 ·
One thing, though: Don't you have to buy the S3 directly from Tivo in order to take advantage of the lifetime subscription transfer?
That is a point I am not certain on. It was the case for the first few days. Then TiVo started allowing exceptions because there were so many order screw-ups. Then it appears TiVo finally caved and made lifetime transferable to any unit purchased anywhere. Now, I don't know if that is the case for just the first week or so of screw-ups or if that is the final policy. I'm trying to find that out now.

But, alas, in my case all this is irrelevant. Any TiVo lifetime purchaser BEFORE January 22, 2000 has a one-time right to transfer their lifetime subscription independant of this particular S3 deal. I bought my first lifetime in October 1999, and have not yet used that grandfathered right. So, now is as good as any. It just happens to be that I'm co-incidently using it when TiVo is otherwise making the VIP offer for the S3 purchasers.

If I get a final answer on this I'll post here. But, troll around the www.tivocommunity.com forum (in the S3 sub-forum) and the answer is probably already there.

...Dale
 
#144 ·
Thinking about the actual topic of TiVo in Canada for a moment.

TiVo was an incredibly innovative product that was possible, but tricky, to use in Canada. TiVo has evolved to be simple to use in Canada (Series 2) but is anything but innovative anymore.

TiVo was incredibly flexible. TiVo has become DRM infested and anti-consumer.

TiVo was the only and best game in town. TiVo was first shown up by ReplayTV (pretty substantially) and is now a significantly more restrictive option than an HTPC.

TiVo has always had decent PQ. But, the PQ from ReplayTV or an HTPC rivals it.

The TiVo S3 makes absolutely no sense as an almost $1000 product. There is so much more that can be had for that money. The product is, even in a cablecard supported environment, significantly crippled. It is a shadow of the product that TiVo first introduced and one which the community through the many hacks made into an amazing centrepiece of home theatre.

While I understand the frustration with cableco/satco PVR's ... it doesn't mean that next gen TiVo makes sense, even in the US. When you add the Canadian issues into the mix ... it's just a shame that they so badly lost their way.
 
#145 · (Edited)
Johnny Cannuck ... Your post makes me laugh. Yes, for the average Joe or Jane in Canada, paying what I am for a crippled TiVo is crazy. But for lucky Amnerican's with mandated cablecard support there is NOTHING that comes close to it.

The currently "crippled" TiVo still does laps around everything else. There is no PVR that has the feature set of even the "crippled" TiVo. The "crippled" elements (ie: TiVotoGo and multi-room viewing) is only a short term issue until TiVo gets the political/policy kinks worked out with the CableCard folks. It isn't from a lack of abiltiy, TiVo's ONLY problems in Canada and the U.S. stem-from the extreme resistance from the Cable Companies and their market and political strengths in their respective markets to drag their feet on even legal mandates.

Criticize it all you wish in the Canadian market - I agree with your critcisms. Criticize the price, I agree the S3 is pricy! But in the U.S. context, you must be drinking the competitors' kool-aid (or perhaps you've never actually used one) to come to that conclusion! :)

...Dale
 
#146 · (Edited)
Actually Dale,

I completely disagree with you. An HTPC running mature PVR software (eg. BTV or Sage) will run circles around any TiVo including an S3 ... up to and including OTA HDTV. As soon as a cablecard spec HD Tuner card (ATI or DVICO are probalby very close) arrives that issue is resolved.

I make comments with a great deal of affinity for TiVo. I owned and used an S1 with Simplicity. I have owned and used a ReplayTV with WiRNS. I own and use a cableco HD-PVR (Motorola 6412). I own and use and HTPC (Meedio and BTV on XP). I have answered your question about my having used a TiVo ... the inference being that my TiVo knowledge is limited. Hardly the case. I would be recognized on the TiVo Canada forums by another nick (think SBK), as I would at Planet Replay. You've read and responded to several of my posts at TiVo Canada. I say that only in response to your suggestion that I am somehow unfamiliar with the topic. I am very well versed in it.

I stand by my comments. An S3 TiVo at $899 US makes little sense in the US. In Canada it makes no sense. An S2 used to make sense before TiVo crippled it in later v. 7 releases. An S1 TiVo still makes sense as long as Simplicity continues to work. When it breaks ... it no longer makes sense.

Lastly, as far as TiVo in Canada goes ... and that is the topic of this thread ... once TiVo decided to add Canadian guide service, their treatment of the Canadian consumer has been high handed and contemtuous. I personally am not about to reward that approach with my hard earned money. It was the tipping point that sent me to ReplayTV and made me realize how far behind the true innovators TiVo has fallen.
 
#148 ·
Good to hear you've used TiVo - sorry to cast aspersions in the prior post but I just don't get how, having used TiVo, you'd come to your conclusions. I still don't. But, such is life.

I haven't explored the Medio in any depth but its my understanding that the all-in (the cost of the PC, the software) it's price is not even close to the S3 TiVo price that you are claiming is overpriced?

You mention that "As soon as a cablecard spec HD Tuner card (ATI or DVICO are probalby very close) arrives that issue is resolved." Exactly when/how is this going to happen in Canada when the MSO's are not willing to support them? And when they do, they'll be equally be usable by the S3.

I want a reliable HD PVR that works with Rogers. There are no other options available to me. If there was I'd explore them. Just this evening my Rogers HD-PVR failed to record both pre-programmed Shark and ER in HD. I set the PVR to record them at 1:00 a.m. - and guess what, they didn't record the 1:00 a.m. episodes either. Why? Who knows? I do know that my S3 WILL record them OTA, admittedly in manual mode, and I won't have to wonder if it will and babysit it?

I'm glad you have something that will theoretically work for you at some point in the future when cablecards are supported in Canada. I know I will too - the S3. In the mean time it will remove about 80% of my reliance on the SFA 8300 HD and its worth every penny of it to me.

...Dale
 
#149 ·
Dale,

I don't want to turn this into a TiVo vs. HTPC thread, but I will try and briefly respond in the context of S3 TiVo's making little sense in Canada.

  1. I built my HTPC for about $1000 all in. No ongoing subscription costs.
  2. BeyondTV provides all the functionality of the TiVo OS with a very usable UI.
  3. The HTPC functions as a media server.
  4. Using Meedio as a front end I get movie listings (including trailers) among the dozens of available plugins.
  5. I can download torrents of TV shows that don't air in Canada and watch them as part of my home theatre.
  6. I can be at the office and forget I wanted to record something and instruct my HTPC to record it from Snapstream's (BeyondTV) website.
  7. BeyondTV is not limited to a single or dual tuner setup. I can be a quad tuner setup mixing SD and HD tuners if I want.
  8. I have S-Video and Audio in on my tuner card. S3 doesn't.
  9. No DRM.
  10. Cablecard is likely never coming to Canada making it a theoretical discussion.

I could go on ... but I said I'd be brief.
 
#156 ·
Am I correct in understanding that I CANNOT record HD channels on the Series 3 in Canada by just plugging the cable line into the back like with the SA8300? I'd be happy to spend the 799US to get the Tivo, but only if I can get rid of the 8300 and still receive all the channels I currently have.
 
#158 ·
The only HD that the S3 can record in Canada is over-the-air HD broadcasts and HD from unencrypted QAM sygnals provided by your cable provider (mostly the local stations).

OTA

Tivo does not currently provide guide data for OTA broadcasts because Tribune does not yet provide it. This will likely change in the future as Tribune continues to expand the HD areas they cover. Until then, you could use the S3 in manual mode to record a specific channel at a specific time. So, for instance, assuming you receive CTV OTA you could set up your TiVo to record every Thursday at 10:00 pm and it would record E.R. faithfully for you. None of the advanced TiVo features will work in this manner but you will get reliable manual recordings. Once the Tribune data becomes available (my guess within the year) the TiVo will be fully functional as an OTA recorder with all the advanced TiVo features.

Cable

Many cable systems provide unencrypted digital QAM channels - usually the local channels. If your cable system does, the TiVo will be able to manually record those channels too. Tivo has said it is looking into the possibility of allowing the user to map QAM channels to known stations. So, if you know 23.1 on your cable system is Global, you would be able to manually map that station to the Global local listings. But, TiVo has not absolutely committed to doing this so it may not ever occur. If not, the best you have is manual recording of the unencrypted digital channels. And, of course, it will always record with full functionality all the analogue stations provided by the cableco. If/when your cable company provides cablecard functionality - likely not until the cablecard 2 standard is finalized (a year or two), TiVo will then be able to use unidirectional capability of cablecards and, at that time, you'll have full functionality for recording everything your cable company has to offer that doesn't require bidirectional functionality (ie: VOD, PPV).

I have ordered an S3 and expect to receive it within the next week or so (I chose the U.S. post/Canada post shipping option - so its coming slowly). Once it arrives I'll be testing all of this and reporting more accurately how it works.

...Dale
 
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