add that helmets have to stay on, if helmet comes off, 5 minutes instead of 2
If face shield and starting a fight 5 minutes instead of 2.

If in a fight, you are not allowed on the Ice for 10 minutes after penalty served, 20 if second fight in game, 60 min if 3rd, this carries over into next game, team is not allowed a substitution, if suspended for 60 min and carried over to next game, team will be short a player in rotation, player has to sit on bench.

That should limit damage and ice times of those that want to fight.

I thought I would chime in a little. First off, there is no real "Flow to a Game" in todays NHL game. If you've ever been to a live game, you'll see players milling around on the ice waiting for TV time outs and the half dozen other game delays that go on in a modern day broadcast. So anyone who insists that fighting takes away the pace of a game probably hasn't seen a live NHL game.

This has been a debate that's gone on for a long time. Like it or not, it is a part of the game and will be for a long time. The players know it and understand the code. (as our true Canadian leader tells us, the honourable Don Cherry :D) In my opinion, the more they try to eliminate this aspect of the game, the more certain players lose respect for other players and the game itself. Take away the instigator penalty and see how long Avery would have been able to stand in front of a goalie and wave his stick in his face. If anything, it is the "goon" who made it possible in certain cases to have a more open and fast paced game. Gretzky was able to do a lot of the things he did because he wasn't getting clubed and abused constantly. The first one who took a run at him would be dealing with the "goon" the next shift.

As for the lack of fighting in International competition, I think it's more a case that there's very little real hitting in a lot of European hockey. You don't get tempers rising as much, and for the most part international tournaments are more a case of national pride. The NHL is a job and the players livelyhood, they have a lot more invested in it than a handfull of games played in an Olympic tournament.

Leave the game as it is. As Cherry just pointed out tonight on CC. The people who really understand the game know it belongs. Even Don Sandersons father still feels that way if what Cherry said is true on CC tonight. My sympathies to the family.

Why is fighting in the game? To change momentum and to intimidate, etc.

Why is it not in the playoffs and in games/series that matter? Apparently momentum doesn't need to be changed in those games. And intimidation doesn't matter, either.

If two random, willing guys got into a fight outside some bar and one fell and hit his head and died, no one would care.

Fighting is not allowed in hockey . There is a five minute penalty and my lead to game ejection and league suspension. Depending on how serious the infractions are.
Sounds something like soccer .This from the Canadian Portuguese Soccer League
Fouls and misconducts will be SEVERELY enforced and may result in the player being expelled from the game or quite possibly the league
Baseball and the N.F.L. have no specified penalties for fighting or straying into a fight.
For the most part, hockey has created rules to combat the will to fight in a game. Most leagues, while not banning fighting, have rules where the combatants are removed from the game.

That includes minor hockey, the NCAA, the Olympics, world hockey championships such as this week's junior tournament in Ottawa, high schools, Canadian universities and yes, all OHA leagues INCULDING SENIOR AAA.
Taking fighting out of hockey has proven as to be as hard as taking diving out of soccer.

Why is fighting in the game? To change momentum and to intimidate, etc.

Why is it not in the playoffs and in games/series that matter? Apparently momentum doesn't need to be changed in those games. And intimidation doesn't matter, either.

If two random, willing guys got into a fight outside some bar and one fell and hit his head and died, no one would care.

Its pretty clear that you don't love the game from comments like this
*yawn*

When other countries care about this tournament, I will too.

It is hard to explain to someone who doesn't understand the game,or care about it as to why fighting should be in it. Its better if you just change the channel, and watch something else if it offends you. The same goes for Boxing, UFC, or any other sport that may violence...
Its OK if you don't like the game, I won't be offended, but don't try and change it so a non fan may find it more appealing...
For the record, fighting occurs less in the playoffs, but it still DOES occur, and you and others that share your viewpoint, think it should be gone completely, which is wrong.

Glad you think you've blown my reasons out of the water, but only in your own head have you done that. You still have yet to address the one thing I brought up in the last post I made. As for the playoffs, please point me to the last fight.

You're a dying breed supporting fighting. As for changing the game for those who don't love it....if you don't try to bring new fans to the game, then you are severely limiting the game's ability to grow. I love hockey, but there are many things wrong with the NHL.

Hockey would not lose one single fan if guys like Boogard weren't in the league.

Your are changing your tune
It went from I bet not one single person would stop watching hockey if fights became suspendable just as they are in every other sport.
to
Hockey would not lose one single fan if guys like Boogard weren't in the league.

I am part of a dying breed? C'mon, do you even watch hockey? Seriously, I'm not joking? Have you watched any fights recently? I'm being serious ? Did the fans not enjoy the fight? Yea, the 15, 000- 20, 000 that actually paid to see the game need it changed, because they don't like fighting....
You have mentioned how fighting stops the "flow" but haven't answered me as to whether scoring a goal stops this "flow"... So I am still wondering...Or is the "flow" impervious to the power of the all mighty goal?

You still have yet to address the one thing I brought up in the last post I made. As for the playoffs, please point me to the last fight.

May 15, 2008 3rd period 19:37 Philadelphia Flyers vs Pittsburgh Penguins Ryan Malone vs Derian Hatcher

May 11, 2008 1st period 03:49 Philadelphia Flyers vs Pittsburgh Penguins
Tyler Kennedy vs Scottie Upshall

Apr 26, 2008 2nd period 10:30 Colorado Avalanche vs Detroit Red Wings Darren McCarty vs Cody McCormick

Apr 15, 2008 3rd period 08:30 Minnesota Wild vs Colorado Avalanche
Ian Laperriere vs Stephane Veilleux

Apr 15, 2008 3rd period 00:17 Washington Capitals vs Philadelphia Flyers
Scottie Upshall vs Mike Green

Apr 13, 2008 1st period 20:00 Montreal Canadiens vs Boston Bruins
Shane Hnidy vs Guillaume Latendresse

Apr 09, 2008 3rd period 16:35 Ottawa Senators vs Pittsburgh Penguins
Ryan Whitney vs Wade Redden

B10
Hit
I think I just sunk your battleship!
I don't know if this is all of the fights, there may be more, but I just wanted to give you the cold hard facts... I think if you asked if the sky was blue, I could show you 1 picture, and not have to provide 100 different angles...

As for changing the game for those who don't love it....if you don't try to bring new fans to the game, then you are severely limiting the game's ability to grow. I love hockey, but there are many things wrong with the NHL.


I think this is may be the root of the problem. I am happy with the game. Do we have to "whore" the game to bits, and change it so others like, to justify to ourselves that our game is good? I would like others to appreciate the game as well, but the game as I, and millions of others have known and grown to love, not a basterdized version that was designed to attract more fans. Attract more fans with marketing, not with Fox Track pucks, breakaway competitions, 3-3 overtimes, banning fighting....
Sure there are some MINOR tweaks that can be done, that can improve the safety of the players, while not changing the game too much (no touch icing?)
I am perfectly fine with the size of the league right now, and actually think it wouldn't hurt to lose/relocate a few American teams to cities that are more hockey oriented...
I think I am looking at the game from a fans perspective, and you are looking at it from a business perspective, as a way to make more money, and I can see your point of view, but think it is bad for the fans...

You got me with the fights. Didn't honestly realize there were that many.

I am for contraction as well. Growing the game doesn't mean growing the number of teams. It means growing the number of players and fans.

I already told you I watch and play hockey. I don't get how you think I changed my tune. If fighting were a suspendable offense, then teams would have no reason to employ the Boogards of the world. You are part of a dying breed. You probably didn't want netting up after a girl was killed, but it came....people whined at first, but now it's just there.

Some people really need to get a mind of their own, and stop thinking that Don Cherry is the only authority on hockey. Newsflash - he's not. I like watching him, but I also have a mind of my own.

I am for contraction as well. Growing the game doesn't mean growing the number of teams. It means growing the number of players and fans.
I have no problem with growing the game, as it is, but I don't want to change the game, just to attract more people, that don't love the game, as it is...


I already told you I watch and play hockey. I don't get how you think I changed my tune.
Me too.
Re-read my post right above yours. You went from saying banning fighting would not lose a single fan, to banning players like......

You are part of a dying breed. You probably didn't want netting up after a girl was killed, but it came....people whined at first, but now it's just there.
Great debate tactic when you know you are wrong.... HEY, LOOK BEHIND YOU, A UNICORN!!!
I had no issue with the netting, it doesn't affect the "flow" of the game, so I have no problem with it, as it does little to change what is happening with the game ON the ice....
The problem is, whenever a tragedy occurs, people say, oh my God, this can never happen again, lets BAN whatever was the cause of the tragedy...
Its terrible that Don Sanderson died, but it was a freak accident, doing something that has been done MILLIONS of times in the game... There are far more instances of serious injuries and death from bodychecking... Research it....

Some people really need to get a mind of their own, and stop thinking that Don Cherry is the only authority on hockey. Newsflash - he's not. I like watching him, but I also have a mind of my own.
Huh? I must have had a few pops when I referenced Don Cherry, because I can't remember bringing his name up....
So let me get this straight, I should listen to you, change my mind, and follow what you think is good for the game, and that will give me a mind of my own?
Are you the kind of guy who has an allergy to Shellfish, but insists on going to Red Lobster, to give them a hard time about their menu, because there is too many items that you can't eat, so they should change it? I understand some people have deadly allergies, but that doesn't mean we should ban something, even though there are others who like it, because some people can't enjoy it...
You don't like fighting in Hockey? Fine, don't watch... You don't like shell fish, fine, don't go to Red Lobster...
There are other Ice Hockey leagues that you can watch, it doesn't have to be the NHL...

P.S You still haven't told me if scoring a goal stops this "flow" you speak of?
I suspect that this mythological "flow" is impervious to the powers of the goal, or the red light waves that emanate from behind the net after the goal is scored...

With respect to your goal theory, I don't respond to rhetoric.

I never said ban Boogard. I simply said that if fighting were eliminated, then there would be no need for these guys that aren't as talented as guys who are not in the league now, but could be.

You're right...fighting is great. I'm out :rolleyes:

I Hate TV, I don't think you reference Cherry, I did. Paully, agreed, Cherry isn't the only authority on hockey, but he is one of the foremost and understands and advocates the Canadian style of hockey which includes fighting and has a place in it for the enforcer.

You're obviously not going to change your mind about fighting. But the fact remains, show me one instance of a pro hockey fight where the fans turned there backs and boo'ed the players off the ice because they were disgusted by the violence? The vast majority of fans enjoy a fight and understand that there are instances where it is required to make the other team understand that they can't abuse certain players. Also, it might be usefull to note that you would see more fighting in the playoffs if the removed the instigator rule was removed. Most coaches won't send out the enforcer in a playoff game because it's going to give the other team a power play.

I believe you're in the minority when it comes to fighting in the NHL. I'm willing to bet the majority would vote to keep it in the game. It would be interesting to have a poll thread to see. What happened to Don Sanderson was a tragety, but I think it's time we stopped living in a nanny state the insists on protecting us from ourselves.

With respect to your goal theory, I don't respond to rhetoric.
You're right...fighting is great. I'm out :rolleyes:

rhet·o·ric Listen to the pronunciation of rhetoric
Pronunciation:
\ˈre-tə-rik\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English rethorik, from Anglo-French rethorique, from Latin rhetorica, from Greek rhētorikē, literally, art of oratory, from feminine of rhētorikos of an orator, from rhētōr orator, rhetorician, from eirein to say, speak — more at word
Date:
14th century

1: the art of speaking or writing effectively: as a: the study of principles and rules of composition formulated by critics of ancient times b: the study of writing or speaking as a means of communication or persuasion

I'm sorry for using rhetoric.... But you seem to be using it too, but I am not complaining...
I never said ban Boogard. I simply said that if fighting were eliminated, then there would be no need for these guys that aren't as talented as guys who are not in the league now, but could be.

Actually, I will tell you what you said, as you seem to be getting what you were thinking, confused with what you are communicating to me

I bet not one single person would stop watching hockey if fights became suspendable just as they are in every other sport and Hockey would not lose one single fan if guys like Boogard weren't in the league.
Small guys will make it to the NHL IF, I say IF, they are talented enough...Their lack of size can be compensated with SKILL...
If there was no bodychecking, we could get even smaller guys in the NHL, wouldn't that be great?
Can you respond to my rhetoric with regards to 3-3 hockey, Euro size ice surface increasing the "flow" of the game?
Being the "Dinosaur" I am, I am going to have a beer, eat a Brontosaurus burger while watching some football, and hope that you enjoy your Cosmo and Figure Skating...
Toodaloo:D

Putting this thread back to being close to on-topic.
In the aftermath of the don Sanderson incident, the OHL has insituted new penalties for players who remove their helmets, including during a fight:
http://thechronicleherald.ca/Sports/9010311.html
But when 21-year-old defenceman Don Sanderson of the Whitby Dunlops died Jan. 2 after striking his head on the ice during an on-ice fight, OHL commissioner David Branch said his league had to look at stiffer sanctions.

...<snip>...

Also under the new rules, if a player removes his helmet and releases his chinstrap to fight and the opposing player doesn't, the former gets an additional two-minute minor penalty in addition to the game misconduct and game suspension.

If the player removes his opponent's helmet or releases the chinstrap before or during a fight, a game misconduct and a one-game suspension is the penalty.

Linesmen are now ordered to intervene immediately should helmets become dislodged during a fight, the OHL said Wednesday in a statement.

The new rules take effect Thursday in the OHL.

It appears David Branch does not understand or like hockey as much as I hate tv.

It appears David Branch does not understand or like hockey as much as I hate tv.
I would bet he knows more than anyone who was bored by, or didn't even watch the Canadian Juniors win gold, and do their country proud!
I don't know where I said anything about removing helmets, but good job on knowing what I think! :rolleyes:
I don't have an issue with the new rule, as I was debating banning fights in the NHL.....
I wonder if you punch another players helmet off will that be considered If the player removes his opponent's helmet or releases the chinstrap before or during a fight, a game misconduct and a one-game suspension is the penalty

I think Ihate tv was referring to fighting in hockey and not helmet infractions. A very unfortunate accident took Don Sanderson

As a former minor hockey ref I feel I can give my 2 cents on interpretation of the rule. No, the player would not be considered "removing" a helmet if it were punched off. There should have to be a demonstrated attempt to remove or loosen it.
And as a former minor hockey ref I was also troubled to see this:
Linesmen are now ordered to intervene immediately should helmets become dislodged during a fight
Officials get paid to officiate. Not take punches. Normally the procedure is to let the guys throw'em until they get tired, hit the ice, or the fight is one-sided. Very difficult and dangerous to wrap your arm across the player's arms when they're not hanging on to each others jerseys. I was once punched in the back of the head when breaking up a fight because the other linesman let his guy's arms go.

So I don't understand or like hockey because I didn't watch a useless tournament where the only country that cares is Canada? How interesting can it be when there's no opposition? I bet you jumped up and cheered for all 15 goals against Kazakhstan.

And how can you fight if you have to keep your helmet on? You're going to have to so many broken or at least cut up hands.

I have a feeling this rule is just going to stop fighting. Which makes me think David Branch is trying to stop fighting.

I have a feeling this rule is just going to stop fighting. Which makes me think David Branch is trying to stop fighting.
Sorry, but would have to disagree. Players fight with helmets all the time. I think the OHL is trying to prevent a potential accident/liability/etc.

So I don't understand or like hockey because I didn't watch a useless tournament where the only country that cares is Canada?
Yes
I don't know a single "fan" of hockey, who happens to be Canadian, that shares your view of the Junior tournament...
IMHO, if you like/love hockey, you will find international tournaments like the World Juniors fun to watch
Maybe you were just trying to stir things up with the who cares attitude towards their Gold Medal, whatever it was, it doesn't paint you as a hockey fan...

How interesting can it be when there's no opposition?
So Sweden, Russia, USA are all horrible teams?
I guess if you had actually watched any of the tournament, or hockey in general, you would understand that there IS competition, and Canada came within 5 seconds of NOT winning gold....Hows that for opposition ?


I bet you jumped up and cheered for all 15 goals against Kazakhstan.

I didn't jump up, but I did cheer. That's what you do, when you are a fan, and your team scores....
I'm not a huge fan of the goal differential tiebreaker, as it causes the weakest teams to be "beat up" in order to avoid losing the tiebreaker on the differential...