: Burn in (Image Retention) Observation


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eimaj
2008-12-13, 04:57 PM
I was at Visions Electronics the other day and I went to the back room to check out the big plasmas. When I went back there, they had a Samsung, Panasonic and Pioneer all side by side. Now I don't understand why somebody didn't notice the same static image (all sets running on the same signal) on all three of these sets, but it made clear which of these three have great burn in resistance. It was not the Samsung, and to my surprise not even the Panasonic. The Pioneer was the only one out of these three that had no hint of burn in from that static image. Now I have no idea how long this image was on these screens, but I would gather that it was the same amount of time as the 3 sets were on the same signal. It was certainly an eye opener.

Just thought I would let you know.

57
2008-12-13, 06:06 PM
You have no idea how long the TVs have been on. One could have been on for months, the other could have been on for weeks and the Pioneer could have been on for hours. Burn in is cumulative over a long period of time - months or years. Also the settings the TV is on can have an impact. Also, what you saw may have been image retention, not burn in.

See: http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=21270

eimaj
2008-12-13, 07:43 PM
No I don't know how long the tv's have been on, but since I've seen this display up at Visions for some time it is safe to assume that each set had most likely the same amount of time with the static image. As for the tv's being on, I have never not seen them on when I have gone in there so I would gather that they are always on when the store is open. I don't know of any electronics store that does not turn on there tvs when the store opens up.

It was just a friendly observation, and it definitely showed me how much better the Pioneer is at resisting this, be it image retention or burn in. And as the Pio 60" is one of the sets I'm looking at for a dedicated ht, this helped me eliminate the plasma competition.

lawman
2008-12-13, 09:34 PM
Sorry. But your "observation" which leads you to an assumption which helped lead you to eliminate the plasma competition is pretty baseless. Don't give up your day job...

The default settings of plasma TVs are not the same. Some have it set brighter, others are set lower. Unless you are standing there in the store for 24-hours by 7 days since those plasmas were installed, and set the settings properly, you have absolutely no way to base any solid recommendation.

eimaj
2008-12-13, 10:37 PM
Why would I give up my day job? So I can troll threads and hand out sarcastic comments like you? No thanks.

I don't see how it is baseless. Same sets with a static image on screen for obviously a long period of time set at out of the box settings. Even if the sets were at a lower setting, you are telling me that this would have no chance of happening? Now who is fooling themselves.

And I wasn't making a recommendation, just eliminating inferior plasmas.

57
2008-12-14, 12:29 AM
You were not eliminating inferior plasmas. You were making a whole bunch of assumptions and then jumped to a conclusion and you don't even know if it's burn in or image retention, or what the settings were on the TVs, or how long the TVs have been on display.

What lawman and I were doing was clarifying that your observations may not necessarily indicate that one TV has superior burn in protection, as implied by your first post.

As indicated in my link in post 2, all plasmas will get burn in if you leave certain static images on them for long enough. The amount of time before burn in will depend on the static image (black bars are the worst) and the settings on the TV during that operating time.

Just as an FYI, I believe Panasonic will be making the panels for Pioneer soon. Pioneer doesn't have any "magic" that decreases burn in possibility from an on-screen static image, relative to other good brands out there.

eimaj
2008-12-14, 09:35 AM
Sure I was eliminating inferior plasmas. Is Pioneer not the most highly regarded plasma anymore? Has Samsung and Panasonic taken over this mantle? I have seen no literature stating this fact. If you have some info on this, please forward it to me so I can change my view.

It doesn't matter how long the tv's have been on display, what matters is that I know they have been up for a while and on out of the box settings, I have seen them before running hd programming and that sometime after that point a static image was emblazened on them for a good long time. Be it image retention or burn in, the Pioneer was the best of the three for resistance against this as it showed no effects.

And as for Pioneer using Panasonic panels, I've known this for some time and consider this is a step backwards and a cost cutting measure on Pioneers's part. They were the ones who always advanced this tech the furthest.

jvincent
2008-12-14, 09:41 AM
Not wanting to flog a dead horse any more here, but the what the others are saying is that you are reaching a conclusion based on incomplete information.

It is entirely possible to setup a Pioneer plasma so that you can have severe burn-in. Similarly, you can set up a Samsung plasma so that it doesn't.

Yes, Pioneer makes good plasmas. But for that matter so does Panasonic.

Khorn
2008-12-14, 09:56 AM
One of the main reasons I'm going for the Pioneer Elite (other than superior PQ of course) is the reviews and tests have emphasized the superior Anti-Image retention mechanisms built into them.

I am really afraid of image retention/burn in and although I was fully aware of the superior PQ of the Kuro I was still trying to find an LCD alternative. Unfortunately there isn't one.

I want the Plasma with the best PQ and IR prevention/control. Fortunately the Pioneer Elite Kuro provides both .

jvincent
2008-12-14, 10:06 AM
Don't get fooled by Pioneer marketing. All current plasmas that I am aware of have things like orbiters/image shifts and brightness limiters in them.

I have all of them turned off on my NEC (which is actually a Pioneer Elite rebadged) because they impact image quality.

The best and most effective burn-in prevention mechanisms are:
1. Turn down the contrast
2. Don't leave static images on for extended periods.
3. Vary your viewing.

I can guarantee you that if you put CNN on a Pioneer Elite/Panasonic/Samsung/LG/etc for a couple of weeks solid you will have burn-in. Phosphor is phosphor.

57
2008-12-14, 10:10 AM
It doesn't matter how long the tv's have been on display, what matters is that I know they have been up for a while This comment indicates that you don't understand the mechanism of burn in, as discussed in my link in post 2 (have you read it?). You cannot get burn in over a period of hours. It takes months or years.

If you wish to state that image retention seems more severe on the other TVs in a matter of hours, then perhaps that would be an accurate statement.

eimaj
2008-12-14, 10:31 AM
This comment indicates that you don't understand the mechanism of burn in, as discussed in my link in post 2 (have you read it?). You cannot get burn in over a period of hours. It takes months or years.

If you wish to state that image retention seems more severe on the other TVs in a matter of hours, then perhaps that would be an accurate statement.
Yes I do understand what burn in is. I've read your link and found it somewhat informative, but I have read differing opinions from other reputable sources from competing forums.

And couldn't repeated ir such as what you could get from black bars and static logos cause the uneven phosphur wear (that you mentioned in your write up) lead to burn in? I know if you maintain your screen by using the programmed screen wipes and alternating programming this will limit ir/bi from happening. But who wants to worry about this? Why not just get the set that has the best resistance to it? And from what I have seen, it is the Pioneer.

jvincent
2008-12-14, 10:57 AM
Why not just get the set that has the best resistance to it? And from what I have seen, it is the Pioneer.

Unless you know for sure that each display has been running the exact same material for the same amount of time you can't draw any conclusions about the relative merits of one set versus the other.

We aren't disputing what you are seeing, just the conclusions you are drawing from it.

Khorn
2008-12-14, 11:22 AM
I can guarantee you that if you put CNN on a Pioneer Elite/Panasonic/Samsung/LG/etc for a couple of weeks solid you will have burn-in. Phosphor is phosphor.

Why on earth would anyone buy a plasma for the above purpose? That is what I'll be buying a smaller second (LCD) for, all the programming with static images.

I guess I'll have to buy the Pioneer Elite and suffer with (what my eyes perceive as) superior picture quality.

jvincent
2008-12-14, 11:38 AM
Well, because they believed the manufacturers claims that their anti-burnin features have somehow made it safe no matter what they do.

I never said that the Elite didn't have superior quality. I own one myself.

The point I was making is that some of anti-IR features have an impact on image quality. If you really want the best picture you need to turn them off and follow the three guidelines I mentioned.

danbcman
2008-12-14, 01:51 PM
Not all horses will drink when given water but still can't say you didn't offer and try your best. :)

Khorn
2008-12-14, 02:43 PM
The point I was making is that some of anti-IR features have an impact on image quality. If you really want the best picture you need to turn them off and follow the three guidelines I mentioned.

I would think that turning off the protection would apply when using the dot on dot mode on sources such as high quality HD broadcasts and when viewing Blu Ray discs. Most other times it wouldn't it make more sense to leave it on?

I would hope in the near future display technology will advance to the point where temporary/permanent IR will be non existent.

57
2008-12-14, 03:30 PM
using the programmed screen wipes...
The screen wipes do nothing but prematurely age your TV. They are ineffective at "preventing" burn in, they just age the TV more so that it's less noticeable.

...alternating programming this will limit ir/bi from happening. But who wants to worry about this?You don't need to worry, provided that you do vary your programming and properly set up the TV. As indicated in my link, burn in is not something to worry or be paranoid about. It's something to be aware of and prevent from happening, provided you understand its cause. These days it's much less of a concern since there is significantly more HD programming available, so that not as many people are watching 50 hours a week of unstretched SD programming...

You seem to believe that Pioneer has somehow conquered burn in. That is not the case and you are deluding yourself if you believe that they have. If they had, they would have a patent, they would be advertizing it, and not have an agreement to purchase panels from a competitor...

Pioneer makes excellent plasmas, but that is not what's being debated in this thread.

jvincent
2008-12-14, 03:40 PM
I would think that turning off the protection would apply when using the dot on dot mode on sources such as high quality HD broadcasts and when viewing Blu Ray discs. Most other times it wouldn't it make more sense to leave it on?

I would hope in the near future display technology will advance to the point where temporary/permanent IR will be non existent.
The burn-in prevention modes are all global that I have seen and are not selectively enabled/disabled based on signal type.

No phoshor based display will ever be immune to burn-in. Reflective technologies (DLP and DILA/LCOS) are immune, but have their own issues. Transmissive technologies like LCD are not susceptible to burn in either but again, have issues.

OLED is supposed to be the saviour of us all, but it's not ready for prime time.

eimaj
2008-12-14, 03:50 PM
You seem to believe that Pioneer has somehow conquered burn in. That is not the case and you are deluding yourself if you believe that they have. If they had, they would have a patent, they would be advertizing it, and not have an agreement to purchase panels from a competitor...
At no time did I say that Pioneer "cured" burn in, only that they have the best resistance to it. And is this not true? From reading other reviews and owner opinions recently, this seems to be the case.

jvincent: You are right in that I don't know the exact amount of time the image was displayed on the sets, but it would be a safe guess that it was the same amount as these 3 were always fed the same loop anytime I was in there and they have been side by side for some time. I also don't believe any Big Box electronic store employee is ambitious enough to always alternate loops, as is evidenced by them not even trying to rid the feed of a static image on over $10000 worth of plasmas.

No it is not an ideal test, but I don't have the means or want the power bill that 3 large plasmas would incur on me if I was to do something like this.