That's right, but Alpert and the others needed Locke to come back to be their leader. And the best way for him to come back was to re-create the plane crash, as a result he had to bring everyone back. So that's why I think Alpert told him he needed to bring everybody back. That's my theory at least.

Explosives on the ship doesn't necessarily mean Widmore had deadly intentions for everyone. They did need something to capture Ben, and I'm sure Widmore is quite familiar with Ben's persuasive abilities.

Also, Ben convinced Michael to be on the ship as a saboteur to protect the island (given that the ship was primarily looking for Ben, it was certainly in Ben's self interest to stop them). Now, based on my memory (uh oh)...didn't Michael say he was there to sink the boat? (and die with it) Some of that C4 could have been Michael's doing.

...<snip>...

Whether blowing up the ship was Widmore's order or not, I have no idea. Point is, they saved that option until the very end. By then, Ben had warped the Oceanic crew into fighting the crew on the ship. Not too surprising the crew's reaction was to return fire...

Anyway, just saying the presence of C4 on that ship could easily fit Widmore's explanation (looking for Ben, had to get Ben off the island, etc.). It's not like they could just walk up and grab him.

...<snip>

I'm still with theory that Ben's a master manipulator. That's he doesn't bat an eye at murder...he's an evil manipulator. Not much grey there to me.

I don't think that Whidmore necessarily even knew about the C4 (he may have we just don't have any proof).

The question is this.... For a hostile mission, why didn't the mercenary "Keamy" take the C4 with him to the island? What made him think that he was going to need an insurance policy? The original plan was never to take hostages (Others or Oceanic survivors) - they were to kill everyone, presumably on the island. That is the reason Whidmore faked the crashed airliner on the ocean bottom - no loose ends.

As such, there was no need for C4 to remain on the freighter. I doubt Whidmore wanted his freighter destroyed. In fact, by leaving the contingency of detonating the freighter, Keamy essentially was stranding himself (assuming he was not killed and could detonate the C4 intentionally, i.e. he or someone else ripping the heart monitor off). The only explanation was that Keamy signed up as a suicide mercenary knowing that if he failed, the Others/Oceanic survivors would not be able to leave the island on the ship.

That brings me to my next question, well sort of.... ;) The Dharma/Others found their way to/from the island when the using the submarine with a sonar beacon. Obviously Ben would know this. Presumably Whidmore did as well. So why did't Whidmore just take some other little sub and find his own way back (of course prior to the destruction of the underwater station, which presumably power the beacon)?

And lastly, if Whidmore knew who to find in L.A. (Faraday's mother) then he could have found her himself, years ago and forced her to reveal the location/time of the island, or at least discovered the location of the Lamp Post. Makes me wonder if Whidmore actually wants to return. And

Or did I miss some stuff? :eek:

And...what? I'm on the edge of my seat!:o

I don't think Whidmore wants to return to the Island.

He just wants to stop Ben from leading the others. The C4 could have been potentially used to remove all evidence/witnesses to the Island's existance. After eliminating Ben the entire ship and it's occupants could be destroyed to preserve the secrecy of the island. Just a thought.

I don't think that Whidmore necessarily even knew about the C4 (he may have we just don't have any proof).
"We just don't have any proof". That's pretty much the central point behind my theory that Widmore isn't necessarily evil. Meanwhile, we have plenty of proof that Ben *is* most certainly evil. We've seen Ben continually manipulate and frequently kill. Ben has never shown the slightest concern for lives of innocent people caught in the "crossfire".
The question is this.... For a hostile mission, why didn't the mercenary "Keamy" take the C4 with him to the island? What made him think that he was going to need an insurance policy? The original plan was never to take hostages (Others or Oceanic survivors) - they were to kill everyone, presumably on the island. That is the reason Whidmore faked the crashed airliner on the ocean bottom - no loose ends.
Slow down assigning the fake crash to Widmore. Obviously it was faked, but I strongly suspect it was Ben (with the help of some off-island friends). Plus, we've seen numerous examples of Ben's desire to keep the island a secret from the world. Makes more sense to me that Ben faked the crash...though we have no proof yet either way (Widmore or Ben).

As for the freighter's "original plan", we've seen multiple examples of "Ben's version" conflicting with reality. Eloise Hawking knows that--Jack asked if Ben was telling the truth, and she replied "Probably not". The whole angle that "they're here to kill everyone" came from Ben. In other words, take it with a grain of salt.
As such, there was no need for C4 to remain on the freighter. I doubt Whidmore wanted his freighter destroyed. In fact, by leaving the contingency of detonating the freighter, Keamy essentially was stranding himself (assuming he was not killed and could detonate the C4 intentionally, i.e. he or someone else ripping the heart monitor off). The only explanation was that Keamy signed up as a suicide mercenary knowing that if he failed, the Others/Oceanic survivors would not be able to leave the island on the ship.
I think those are good proof points that Ben's version is an invention--nothing more than a concoction to manipulate people into assisting Ben avoid capture. Why would Keamy sign up for a suicide mission? If Keamy & Co. truly were intending to wipe out the island as Ben suggested, why not take more C4 to the island? Good points.
That brings me to my next question, well sort of.... ;) The Dharma/Others found their way to/from the island when the using the submarine with a sonar beacon. Obviously Ben would know this. Presumably Whidmore did as well. So why did't Whidmore just take some other little sub and find his own way back (of course prior to the destruction of the underwater station, which presumably power the beacon)?
Yeah, the beacon was powered by The Looking Glass. However, the beacon wouldn't be "on" all the time. They'd only need it when the sub was coming back. Besides, Ben was using The Looking Glass to jam radio signals leaving the island (a whole lot of deception around The Looking Glass BTW). Anyway, it seems to me the beacon is really hard to find unless you know where and when to look. Remember how Penny had been trying to find Desmond? Even though they had a crew searching the exact area, they didn't hear a peep until The Looking Glass was powered down by Charlie.
And lastly, if Whidmore knew who to find in L.A. (Faraday's mother) then he could have found her himself, years ago and forced her to reveal the location/time of the island, or at least discovered the location of the Lamp Post. Makes me wonder if Whidmore actually wants to return. And

Or did I miss some stuff? :eek:
Well, Widmore was funding Faraday's research, and Faraday expected Desmond to find Eloise Hawking at Cambridge. That she's now in LA could simply be a progression of Faraday's research (e.g. the tactical change from trying to predict where it "is" to predicting where it "will be"). Point is, knowing of the Lamp Post's location today doesn't necessarily indicate Widmore could have returned earlier. In addition, funding Faraday's research could be proof of Widmore's desire to return to the Island.

That said, I agree that Widmore wants to stay away from the island right now. He's probably aware the island isn't stable. Second, he and Eloise have each mentioned a huge battle in the offing. Even if he's been trying to return for decades, Widmore has every reason to stay away (for now).

While it's entirely possible that Widmore is just as evil as Ben, we simply don't have any proof of that. Yet. Ben? Lying and murder piled on top of more lying and murder, all done in his own self-interest. Call me crazy, but I don't believe a word Ben says. Which means Widmore could easily be a good guy.


Phew...rather long post... :eek: Do you get the impression I like digging into the details of this show? ;)

And...what? I'm on the edge of my seat!:o
And.... after wrapping my head around oilblue's responses, I can't remember what I intended to write. Consider it a typo - sorry.

While it's entirely possible that Widmore is just as evil as Ben, we simply don't have any proof of that. Yet. Ben? Lying and murder piled on top of more lying and murder, all done in his own self-interest. Call me crazy, but I don't believe a word Ben says. Which means Widmore could easily be a good guy.

Definitely the writers intention is to keep us guessing about Ben, Whidmore, and even Locke.

Ben: enough said already.
Whidmore: for his part however, has killed as well (on the island). He was also shown in a video tape beating a guy senseless (possibly faked?). As for the faked airline crash, Whidmore has the financial resources to do this. I'm not convinced Ben does. Thankfully (from a suspense point of view), we don't really know much about Whidmore.
Locke: .... as pointed out, the writers are trying to bring biblical allusions to his character, paralleling Jesus. Well he is no less guilty of murder and manipulation... he killed Naomi (parachute girl), and manipulated Sawyer into killing his father. I do however thinks he actually believes "the end justifies the means", a little more faithfully than Ben or Whidmore.


Regardless, the writers have done a decent job disguising deception and half truths as opportunistic self-serving sacrifice.

Phew...rather long post... :eek: Do you get the impression I like digging into the details of this show? ;)
Yup me too. I just don't have the time to do it justice. :(. I have found that since last year's announcement for the planned end of the series, the story/characters have seemed to have gotten even more interesting. The writing has gotten tighter, and the plot and intrigue has started moving quicker.

So... in a weird way, I really don't want the series to end now. :confused:

Next question: ;)
What is so specially about being the leader of the Others that it drives these characters to these extremes?

Definitely the writers intention is to keep us guessing about Ben, Whidmore, and even Locke.
Agreed. They've done an excellent job of keeping us guessing.

Ben: enough said already.
Whidmore: for his part however, has killed as well (on the island). He was also shown in a video tape beating a guy senseless (possibly faked?). As for the faked airline crash, Whidmore has the financial resources to do this. I'm not convinced Ben does. Thankfully (from a suspense point of view), we don't really know much about Whidmore.
Locke: .... as pointed out, the writers are trying to bring biblical allusions to his character, paralleling Jesus. Well he is no less guilty of murder and manipulation... he killed Naomi (parachute girl), and manipulated Sawyer into killing his father. I do however thinks he actually believes "the end justifies the means", a little more faithfully than Ben or Whidmore.

Ben==bad...'nuf said. (now that I've gone on and on about it ;))

Widmore==??? Could be either way. I admittedly forgot about the video tape...though it was Ben's tape, and Ben's version of events. Hmm.

BTW, don't discount Ben's financial resources (or that of his off-island friends/operatives). Couple examples:
- Miles asking Ben for 3.2 million
- Ben's ability to track all of the Oceanic six (and Walter)
- Ben's ability to fund Sayid for two years and to pay for the intelligence on the whereabouts of their targets

Maybe there's an "Others" bank that both Ben and Widmore have been using. :)

Locke==good guy. As you've mentioned, Locke has killed (or gotten Sawyer to do so). Generally though, Locke does it out of concern for other people. For example, Locke truly believed Naomi's group was going to kill everyone (whether that justifies his actions or not is another question entirely). Ben goes lethal for no reason than his own self interest, and Ben has no concept of innocent people.


Definite extremes at play among the Others leaders. Ben and Locke are practically polar opposites, and Widmore is a question mark. Widmore could be another Ben, or another Locke, or even smack dab in the middle of the two. We just don't know yet, though a particular representation has been painted by Ben. Would Ben try to paint an accurate expectation? Or one that suits his own agenda? Every once in a while the truth does fit Ben's agenda...

Global TV cut to commercial early and the last couple of minutes were cut off. Did anyone see who the response to who was on the phone? What did they want?

I am soooo hate Global.. I am changing to the east feed to avoid their incompetence next week.

Jin was on the phone, James got in his jeep and met up with Jin who was driving the blue van. Out stepped Jack, Kate & Hugo.

I am changing to the east feed to avoid their incompetence next week.

Next episode is 2 weeks from now.

Excellent! Thank you! :)

How do you think Jin was able to phone Sawyer,did not Sawyer tell Julia earlier in the show that they were in the time frame of 1974.Were their cell phones or satellite phones back then?Or any type of mobile phone?

They have a large surveillance system, so Jin may have communicated through that somehow.

Finally! A flash forward / flash back sequence that i could actually understand without straining my puny brain!

:) :)

This episode also answers how Faraday ends up in the past at the Orchid station in the first scene of the first episode of this season.

The little red-haired girl was supposed to be Charlotte, but according to Ben (last season) she was born in Exeter in 1979. Th elittle girl would have been 3-4 in 1974, so by 1979 she would have been 8-9. Much too old for someone to pretend she was born in '79. Unless, of course, in getting off the Island she ended up in the early '80s.

Remember back to an episode where they show the "others" being led by Ben watching the Oceanic flight breakup over their heads? Bens sends out two guys and says "I want lists in two days". Why would Ben want a list, unless Richard told him that people from that flight were on the Island before and he needed to know who they were. Early on, Ben seemed most interested in Jack, Hurley and Kate.

Wasn't the main reason Ben wanted Jack was to perform that surgery on him?

At the time I thought the Others used the passenger lists to build files on everyone. Perhaps you're onto something there Larry. Perhaps Ben already had folders on particular people. Interesting.