: Hello All I'm New
2003-12-13, 09:45 PM
HeaTransfer Yes we are currently being carried by Shaw. I have spoken to them about my HD Service wether they carry it or not is the question. The issiue is payload since Cancom is ditributing most Canadian Televison to BDU's and that is what is used for SC free ride on the same bird there are space issiues. Like Express Vu they don't own thier own bird it is owned by TeleSat and they lease space. Right now the Anik Birds are in trouble. E2 has gone to incline and a fleet spare from PanAm Sat has been moved in until Anik F2 can replace it. F2 is 18 months past its original launch date. Anik F1 is now in trouble the panels are oxidizing very quickly and the bird is losing power. They have narrowed the beam and turned down the Power to try and prolong it's life. Until these issiues are addressed I wouldn't count on much HD on Shaw unless they bring it down off Nimq 2 But Brad and Terry don't exactly get along. :wink:
jvincent D1 is a Tape Standard that is used incorrectly when describing Digital TV Signals. The Standard that I currently use is SDI 601. This is a 4x3 Digiatal signal. The quality depends on the type and amount of compression thats being used on your storage and transport thats another long story. With regards to your question regarding HDTV distribution I'm not sure what you mean. I will deliver my signal to my Distribuotrs via Fiber in an ASI Format. I modulate my 720P to ASI for transport over Fiber then BDU's will Demod back to 720P for Distribution to the Consumer. Eventualy Consumers will be able to purchase an ASI type IRD or Demod but currently they are very costly. This would standardize the transport stream but not the platform. Currently SMPTE reconizes over 24 HDTV formats in North America. Consumer TV manufactures have driven the Broadcast standard with typicaly 480i/480P/720P/1080i being the norm. It's up to each broadcaster which one they will use. ABC/ESPN are 720P Fox is 480P (which is not HD it is called ED) and the rest are 1080i so there are basicaly four standards that are being broadcast at present.
2003-12-13, 09:46 PM
There are a lot of people in TV that wish I wern't real :lol:
2003-12-13, 09:56 PM
Thanks for the D1 / 601 clarification.
My question was for HD programming that you receive from a 3rd party, like say a movie studio.
I'm assuming it can come in a variety of digital formats, the HD equivalent of SDI 601, and will then need to be scaled to 1280x720. Since it's digital to begin with this probably isn't a big deal I was just curious if there was consensus at the content generation end of the business.
2003-12-13, 10:22 PM
Yes that is true as I metioned earlier I will be using new state of the Art equipment to up convert. so it dosn't realy matter what type of standard comes in. I of course want as much HD programing as possible. Most of my true HD programing will be live in nature (now I'm startin to give it away :) )
When I speak of going from P to I I am refering to this at the end user consumer level. The technology that I'll be using to upconvert from I to P costs $300,000 per unit not somthing a consumer would have hence the standards converters in Consumer products are very primitive. That being said it is very difficult to deinterlace to Progresive properly using low grade consumer equipment. It is however quite simple technicaly to interlace a progresive signal using consumer grade equipment with excellent results.
2003-12-14, 02:28 AM
Can you shed any light on what is happening at the CRTC wrt the applications heard at the November 17th public hearing? Whether yours was one of them or not, you may be able to provide some insight on what's stalling. They've yet to post any details, notices or transcripts. Why would they be keeping this private and why haven't the applications been approved?
As for the ATSC format, can't you be configured to switch on the fly depending on what programming is on, such that sports are 720p and movies are 1080i? This way you wouldn't have to scale 1080i original material down to 720p.
BTW, CTV & Rogers announced a production partnership for sharing the cost of a mobile truck in this press release (http://www.digitalhomecanada.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10948) on Friday.
2003-12-14, 09:13 AM
matey I'm not sure what applications you are speaking of if it's regarding US HD services I would expect that to take some time. The CRTC is fast tracking HD Lic to Canadian Networks that are already broadcasting in anologue. Canadian Diginets are considered but Anologue will take the cue.
I didn't see that press release on the Truck and there is more to it than Rogers and CTV partnering on the truck. It is actually Dome Productions that Rogers will be partnering with. The HD truck is well under way trust me I have seen it. Dome also owns a number of other Trucks both Digital and Analogue. They also own a distribution wing as well that deals with Fiber and Sat distributin of Broadcast Video, I have heard that Rogers is not interested in this part of the orginization only Dome Productions. This is a great move for Rogers since they have a Regional Sports Network that they will be able to service directly with mobiles. You may find out that Rogers owns more than 50% :)
With regards to your 720P 1080i question there is no scaling of raster required when going between the two formats. There is however complicated conversion when deinterlacing 1080, this is not scaling as you called it. If we look at the number of complete frames per second in 1080i when compared with 720P you can understand what I'm speaking about. Also when editing material in my Non-Linear world any standard changes in material will effect my production time. As I said when I announce what type of programing I will be doing HD 720P will make sence and show the best quallity. Also there has to be a standards conversion some where you can't send 720 then 1080 bounced around to the consumer without seeing a glitch when the format changes. Try switching the output of a DVD between 480i and 480P to see the results if you don't see a glitch I would like to know what type of TV you are using.
2003-12-14, 10:57 AM
There are a lot of people in TV that wish I wern't real :lol:
BTW can i ask if your network is carry by Videotron?
2003-12-14, 12:12 PM
matey I'm not sure what applications you are speaking of if it's regarding US HD services I would expect that to take some time. The CRTC is fast tracking HD Lic to Canadian Networks that are already broadcasting in anologue.
I'm referring to the transitional digital TV licenses for CBLT, CBLFT, CFTO, CIVT, CKXT and CITS. If these are really being fast tracked then why didn't they get approved at the hearing. Is it not normal for approvals to happen at the hearing, or very shortly thereafter, if there are very few issues. I can't believe that the applications would still be needing additional information or clarifications by that time. I read through the applications and interventions as posted on the CRTC website (http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/process/2003/nov17.htm) and I didn't see anything that should hold back decisions.
Also there has to be a standards conversion some where you can't send 720 then 1080 bounced around to the consumer without seeing a glitch when the format changes. Try switching the output of a DVD between 480i and 480P to see the results if you don't see a glitch I would like to know what type of TV you are using.
As most HDTVs either run native 1080i or native 720p, I expect the STB to be configured to which output is needed and perform any conversion. Therefore, if my set is 1080i, then I will always have output from the STB at 1080i whether the signal is 1080i or 720p, just like the Rogers' STB works now. If I had a DLP (720p), then I would want the output on ths STB to be set at 720p for all material. This would include any switching on the fly for a given channel. I wouldn't send both native 720p and 1080i to the TV since (next to) no TVs support both resolutions natively, plus the point you made that they glitch when switching. My TV (Toshiba 50HX81) for one blanks on 720p input, which is extremely annoying for Xbox gaming.
I respect your decision to go 720p, especially wrt to simplifying the editing process. However, wrt to the conversion from 720p to 1080i you may note that the current Rogers STB does an extremely poor job. ABC becomes somewhat fuzzy and I get lots of artifacts near the top of the picture, although this could be the Detroit source.
It is nice to have you on the forum. I look forward to your insights in the coming months and years as the Canadian broadcast industry migrates to true digital.
matey, you may not want the STB to do the conversion. Since a number of CRT-based TVs now accept 720P, they may do a better conversion than the STB. Also, the same with fixed pixel displays, converting 1080i to 7XXp.
2003-12-14, 12:35 PM
Yes there will be original 4x3 material I will be aspectizing applying active NR and upconverting this content with a state of the art Brodcast product that has 300,200 64mb procesors in it. a Procesor is dedicated to each pixel
What's the make/model of this thing?
2003-12-14, 01:07 PM
First of The current Rogers Terminal only outputs 1080i there is no choice. Yes it up converts 720P but a Broadcaster cannot change the format type on the fly unless its in the ASI Format. Once it hits a BDU's info structure in must stay in one format and not switch. There are no current STB that can preform on the fly seamless format conversion.
With regards to your comments on the CRTC applications I suggest that you read the Summary of the CRTC Public Notice 2003-61. Obviously you have not be involved directly with the CRTC. There has never been to my knowledge a descion made at time of application hearing. There are many considerations when Lic an HD service that the general public has no insight on. I could fill pages on this but just don't have the time. Just for your information until about 3 months ago there was no requirment to amend current Lic for HD. This was done directly between the BDU's and the Broadcasters. I think after you read Notice 2003-61 You will have a better understanding of the big picture. On another note I have been waitng for almost a year on a major application that we put to the CRTC. They don't move quick :wink:
My set supports both 720P 1080i through HDMI the time it takes to switch between channels is all the set needs to remap for P or I but if you switch on the fly it takes about a second. Oh yeah you won't find this information in the manual for my set the manual is wrong it states that it only does 1080i. A call to Panasonic tech support will verify what I have said. They are going to be redoing there manuals :wink:
There were some older Panasonics that did 720P and 1080i natively (although the horizontal resolution spec was close to 800 lines only). The newer ones have not advertized this fact, if they do 720P & 1080i natively.
2003-12-14, 01:26 PM
57 That is true. I was familiar with the Panasonics Industrial Glass that did both and i was told it's the same glass in th TH-50PX20 so I assumed it would do both. I was shocked when I read the manual and it stated that it only did 1080i. I contacted Panasonic and they couldn't answer my question I got a call back later that day stating that indeed the TH-50PX20 can do both but only through the HDMI conection. As you are well aware any device that has a DVI out can interface with the HDMI input with a simple cable interface. I have tested this and it works fine.
JohnnyG The product I will be usinfg is made by these guys I'm not sure if they are showing there newest stuff on their site but here is the link.
Broadcaster, you need to bone up on your HDTVs. The one you mention can only do 768P, since it is a fixed pixel display. It accepts 1080i, however, 1080i (and 720P) will be converted to 768P, the native resolution. The TV has no choice (as is the case with all fixed pixel displays - as I mentioned in an earlier thread)
1366 x 768 pixel resolution
There are plenty of HDTVs that will "accept" 720P and 1080i, however, there are next to none currently that have the capability to display both natively (only a couple of expensive Princeton CRT Monitors that I mentioned earlier)
2003-12-14, 01:54 PM
Broadcaster, without telling us the network you work for, can you tell us the question we all truly want to know. If you get HDTV online before the Superbowl, will you be simsubbing the CBS broadcast? :)
Sorry, had to ask.
2003-12-14, 02:01 PM
I see what you mean I guess I'll have to do more resarch on the consumer product :lol: I find it interesting that through my RGB input I can dispaly a resolution of 1600x1200 @60hz. How does this Monitor display that pixel resolution and refresh rate if it's fixed at 1366 x 768? I must be missing somthing here.
Here is a link to Specs
Oh and I belive I stated that my set supports both 720P and 1080i I don't think I said anything about it doing it Native. :lol:
Also the only Princeton stuff I have seen with High Pixel count have been speced at VGA standards could you post a link to the product you mention I'm very interested in seeing it. It could keep my MCR monitoring cost down if I don't have to pay Broadcast Prices.
2003-12-14, 02:14 PM
Global has the rights to the Super Bowl and they will not be ready by then but very soon after :) You can watch Off Air or through Rogers from the original source.
2003-12-14, 02:39 PM
As you can tell many Canadians are not happy with simsub. Matthew Fraser (National Post) wrote a great piece years ago about the original intent of simsubbing and the results since.
Basically this extra $$ was not used for its original purpose (i.e. funding new Canadian content).
Globlal offers the best evidence of this and i think many of us hope Global never goes HD. Superbowl being just one reason.
Sorry, I got the impression that you seemed to imply that you could see a difference between 720P and 1080i. You also stated:
My set supports both 720P 1080i through HDMI the time it takes to switch between channels is all the set needs to remap for P or I
Which implied that the TV was remapping, when in fact it was just accepting one or the other.
I typed "princeton + 720P + 1080i" into a search engine and got a few hits (you may wish to do the same.) Here's one example.
I'm not actually positive if this unit does 1080i natively or simply "accepts" it. There is a lot of misinformation on the web and I've seen plenty of CRT-based TVs that say they'll display 720P, when in fact they only accept 720P. The last time I looked for such a monitor it was over US$3000.
You may need to contact Princeton.
2003-12-14, 02:48 PM
Yeah subing is a sticky point. I can understand both sides Global is building HD though and thats not cheap. There will be very little revenue generated from their service probably will be a loss. So why would they even bother to launch and do HD?