be236,

here's another thought on yours, I was thinking of combining 2 identical models of 4221. Iwas thinking it might be as good or better than a 4228, especially if the 4228HD has to be hacked anyway, AND it would be cheaper...just thinking...

(I know the 4228 vs 2x 4221 comparison was discussed already)

I'm not planning on adjusting my current antenna (the CM-3671) anytime soon, but reading these posts make me wonder something.

In my situation, I have a wide range of UHF signals, all VHF-HI signals except for 12 which is there but too weak to lock currently, and a weak mostly unlockable signal on VHF 5. I was thinking that if I had stacked antennas for UHF, VHF-HI, and an antenna specifically for channel 5, would that increase my reception range for fringe stations enough to be worth it? I do have a preamp currently and would continue to use one with this proposed setup.

In case you are wondering about distances: the channel 5 is roughly 49 miles away with a slight null in my direction, the channel 12 is about 75 miles away, and the far range UHF stations are about 60-65 miles from me.

The CM-3671 is a decent antenna. However, I'm of the opinion that most combo antennas are a compromise.

Looking at HDTV Primer's comparison (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html) of common commercially available antennas, the CM-3671 actually does very well on VHF. You can't beat it with most other VHF-only antenna for channel 12.

On the UHF side, there is some room for improvement over the CM-3671 with competing antennas. In particular, the XG-91 by Antennas Direct.

While others may disagree with me, I've never been a fan of stacking and combining same-band antennas to increase signal for weak stations. The realized gain--if present--is often marginal at best.

I would investigate other possibilities, such as increasing antenna height with a tower. Greater cost and hassle, yes. But the results may well be far better than you could obtain with stacking or combining.

I've actually raised the antenna from 20 to 40 feet above ground, and it does make a slight difference on the weak stations.

My next system, whenever that will be, I will try getting an antenna dedicated to UHF and see what happens. Only problem I may have with the XG-91 by Antennas Direct is that the author advises not to use this under 25 miles, and my locals are in that range.

. . . . Only problem I may have with the XG-91 by Antennas Direct is that the author advises not to use this under 25 miles, and my locals are in that range.
No need to worry. I have installed three 91Xg's in mega strong (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dec12ad0f5b0709)signal area's & they are all stellar performers with both strong & weaker signals.

As far as overload is concerned, it's rare that you can ever have too much antenna. Over amplification causes most overload issues.

And you can always use an attenuator to bring down the juice if need be.

Is that 3x 91Xg's combined, or just 3 separate installs?

Is that 3x 91Xg's combined, or just 3 separate installs?
3 different areas' within 10 miles of DC. The goal was to also receive the weaker Baltimore stations in the same exact direction. Broadband amplification is not an option, so a high gain antenna was the most effective approach. No attenuation was necessary for UHF.

you can use a XG91 in a high signal area. I have had no issue with mine.

Thanks guys for the info. Someday I'll pick one up, however with my current setup it's expensive to install, since I would keep it right below (or above) the 3671. With my height it's a couple hundred bucks for that work, and I'm certainly not going to do it myself!

I have a situation at hand (helping a family member) similar to rabbit121's. We have a rotor, a 4221 UHF antenna, and a Winegard HD6000 FM antenna. If we put the FM antenna at the bottom (above the rotor), it won't clear the roof unless the top mast can be about 7.5' long, which is then problematic for the rotor.

So we are thinking about putting the FM antenna at the top and the 4221 near to bottom on a 5' mast.

Anything I should be aware of?

Also, as for spacing, I'm assuming the further apart the better. :confused: When people quote a distance (say 2 feet), are they measuring from feedpoint-to-feedpoint or from tail-to-nose? Since the reflector of the 4221 is about 3' high, it will be less than 2' from the top of the 4221 to the bottom of the HD6000.

Oh, one more thing. I was going to join the RG6 from both antennae using a UVSJ as it looks like items like the rs 15-2586 passes FM radio frequencies on the VHF side. Do I understand that correctly?

Thanks for any suggestions. :cool:

Hi there new to OTA,
want some input before i invest,
i live on the shores of Lake Erie (Wainfleet, Ont)
and i want to use 2 cm4221hd aimed at buffalo at one end of my house
and at other end (60ft away) have 2 cm4228 hd aimed at Toronto (CN Tower about 80 - 100 miles away ).
some restrictions i have,
wind is a big issue often the wind moves my heavy BBQ around and our big glass patio table around. so i do not want to go higher than 30ft

My roof, we converted a barn into a house and the roof which has 3 different pitches. And very steep an difficult to work on, the sat company used a bucket truck to mount dish.
question
i have read that the feeds from each antenna in the gang has to be the same length to the splitter, this is not that hard but running the cable from the splitters at the 4221 and the 4228 do these runs have to be the same length, and before i even get to my tv i have 3 splitters in line and 100ft of
cable (ruff guess 50ft each feed) also going to use a cm 3414 Multiswitch to divide the feed to the 3 bedrooms and living room
equipment looking at,
lots of rg11 and compression fittings
2 cm 4221 hd
2 cm 4228 hd
3 cm 3212 splitters
1 cm 3414 Multiswitch

is this possible, and will this work,
any input good or bad would be great!!

pcwaters,

I'm not too far from you and there are others who can help you. You won't need all of that equipment.

Go here and use your postal code to get a local tvfool report:
http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

Then: copy and post the link to your tvfool report in this thread.
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=36534&page=85

it won't clear the roof unless the top mast can be about 7.5' long, which is then problematic for the rotor.

Is the mast on a tower? How about adding one more 8 or 10 ft tower section? To just increase the tower height enough to avoid this problem alltogether? So that whatever's on the mast always clears the roof ?

Is that out of the question ? Not possible? Too much work or expense?

That would be the real solution - I think.

Has anyone tried vertically stacking three 4221HD's (all pointed in the same direction with identical cable runs to the reverse splitter)?

I currently have 2 4221HD's stacked and I'm wondering how much extra gain I could see adding a third. What other benefits or problems could I expect?

Nic

Hi there new to OTA,
want some input before i invest,
i live on the shores of Lake Erie (Wainfleet, Ont)
and i want to use 2 cm4221hd aimed at buffalo at one end of my house
and at other end (60ft away) have 2 cm4228 hd aimed at Toronto (CN Tower about 80 - 100 miles away ).
some restrictions i have,
wind is a big issue often the wind moves my heavy BBQ around and our big glass patio table around. so i do not want to go higher than 30ft

My roof, we converted a barn into a house and the roof which has 3 different pitches. And very steep an difficult to work on, the sat company used a bucket truck to mount dish.
question
i have read that the feeds from each antenna in the gang has to be the same length to the splitter, this is not that hard but running the cable from the splitters at the 4221 and the 4228 do these runs have to be the same length, and before i even get to my tv i have 3 splitters in line and 100ft of
cable (ruff guess 50ft each feed) also going to use a cm 3414 Multiswitch to divide the feed to the 3 bedrooms and living room
equipment looking at,
lots of rg11 and compression fittings
2 cm 4221 hd
2 cm 4228 hd
3 cm 3212 splitters
1 cm 3414 Multiswitch

is this possible, and will this work,
any input good or bad would be great!!
Putting the CM3414 Distribution Amp AFTER all of that cable and combiner/splitter loss means
you will lose lots of sensitivity (on the order of about 10 dB).

You should use a mast-mounted Preamp on each antenna, with Satellite type RF Splitters,
with DC PASS on one or both ports to pass power to the Preamps. Then you don't need
and surely should NOT USE a Distribution Amp (to avoid overloading it).

PS: Equal length coax lengths are ONLY needed when combining two identical antennas
pointed in the SAME direction.

^^^ Agreed! The purpose of having identical cable lengths is to match the phase of the signals received by the two antennas. If the antennas are different or are pointed in different directions the phase will already be mismatched, so having identical cable lengths will not help.

The key to combining the signals of antennas pointed in different directions is to make sure each broadcast is only received by one of the antennas, not both. The best way to do this is with filters (such as a band combiner or a Jointenna) as that avoids the 3dB of loss due to internal reflections inside the combiner, but that isn't always practical.

When that isn't practical, then you need to make sure that you use an antennas with a narrow enough beamwidth that they won't effectively receive off axis stations. It is for that reason I don't recommend using 4-bay antennas in this situation. 8-bay antennas can also be problematic as they have side lobes could cause issues, but they also have deep nulls that could be helpful if they are in the right place.

Ganging is overkill in some situations!

Re: pcwaters,

Here's an example of a general rural wainfleet tvfool report:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d40330dfdbb5756

He needs something that is 'VHF/UHF' and 'widebeam & bi-directional' that will get him everything that is reliably available from the front/back within 50miles. I don't see any point in using a complex system of multiple high gain antennas,.. just something bi-directional will do the job with ease. The antenna's front & back would point toward SSE & NNW.

A preamp will be a must to overcome the loss of the long cable runs and distribution splitter[s].

A reflectorless 'SBGH with narods' with a swept back element to increase the GH's beamwidth or the 'SSH I' antenna would do the job. Even the small Stealth Hawk with a preamp would do the job from that area.

Hello guys. After Christmas, as soon as I can take the multitude of lights off the balcony ledge, I'll attempt both ganging and stacking using two 4228a. For this project I have acquired an ample supply of 300 ohm cable and one of the precious few Winegard SD-3700 antenna couplers still available (From Solid Signal). Now I would like to ask if I'm better off leaving all four mesh reflectors act on their own (no contact), should I tie-wrap both of the same aerial or should I tie wrap all four reflectors so as to create a single one.

I have observed that by joining reflectors (of the same antenna), VHF-HI performance improves substantially with little to no degradation on fringe UHF. So do I go all the way and merge the entire mesh surface???

Like the army "I'm aiming high" since I know for a fact that I can get way more pointing south-west than what TVFool shows for my postal code (J4K 2T2).

Happy holidays by the way!!!

ota_canuck

so what do I use to build the SSHI and how do attach the cable to it
i have checked out some of the links showing the different designs
interesting ideas,

so my idea for setup is over kill, just get a cm4221hd and point it to buffalo should be good to start and add another pointed to the CN tower to receive Toronto stations

and some other question i have some starchoice/shaw receivers with antenna feeds in could i use them to decode hd or do i have to a ota receiver?
thanks for your input. greatly appreciated.