Hello,

Since i'm never completely happy with my reception results, can i use on the same line the KT-100VG (that i did not buy yet) and my already installed CM7777 ?

The problem is that i have mosaics on one channel and the other are all at about 75-80% strength.

Also, my setup include a second antenna for local stations in opposite direction. Is it dangerous to overload since these local channels arrives at approx 80-90% signal strength ?

My actual setup is the following:

- 4228+another smaller uhf antenna
- The 4228 goes into a band separator and then into the vhf and uhf entry of an antenna mixer
- The other smaller antenna feeds directly into the second coax uhf input of the antenna mixer
- The output of the antenna mixer is going into the 7777 and then in the house.

Thank you.

Since i'm never completely happy with my reception results, can i use on the same line the KT-100VG (that i did not buy yet) and my already installed CM7777 ?

Whew, youre liable to overload. The CM7777 has quite a bit of gain. How long is your cable run and hows it split ? Preamps only take care of signal losses after the antenna terminals.

3 feet from the 4228 to the band separator (not a pico macom), then 2 cables about 6 inches goes to the 2 inputs (vhf/uhf) of the mixer (televes 4041)
3 feet from the other cheaper and smaller uhf antenna directly to the other uhf input of 4041.
The output of the 4041 feed directly into the preamp 7777 using a 3 inches cable. And that's it, the rest is a 25 feet cable that feed inside the home.

All cables are RG6U.

nwusa:

your terminology may actually be correct, and mine incorrect, but my explanation remains - you can check the FAQ about the terminology.;)

I edited my post #62 terminology in this thread: http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=111398, sorry about that

nwusa:

your terminology may actually be correct, and mine incorrect, but my explanation remains - you can check the FAQ about the terminology.;)

I edited my post #62 terminology, sorry about that

There aren't any set-in-stone rules for the word or phrase meanings that I know of. You need context to be sure. Here are few common definitions . . . and there are others.

"Ganging" is the combining of 2 or more antennas' outputs together. Side-by-side ganging is just one of the ways of ganging antennas

"Stacking" is the specific combining of 2 identical antennas faced in the exact same direction for long distance, deepest fringe reception. The goal of stacking is not to make 2 antennas into 1, but rather to get both of the antennas working as a team.

“Quad stacking” can be four antennas both vertical and horizontal.

“Phase-nulling” horizontal stacking by varying the distance between horizontally mounted antennas.

“Vertical stagger stacking” with two verically stacked antennas facing opposite directions. Upper gets mount relocated and moved more forward from the mast. Usually done to opimize only specific channels.

jdemaris, the terms you use are just worded a bit differently but are the same concepts in use here, for sure.

Due to all the antenna research & development taking place at this site we do use set-in-stone terminology here to avoid confusion. The terms are all based on that used in R&D literature and on the hdtvprimer web site run by Ken Nist. Post #16 in the OTA FAQ clarifies the terms we use.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do. :)

actually im still not clear on the terminology, as defined,

1. but I consider 2 identical antennas combined together and pointed identically, are stacked, be it horizontally or vertically

2. I consider 2 different or identical antennas combined together and pointed differently, are ganged, be it horizontally or vertically (although more often vertically)

Actually SAVE & REPLAY offers a different, opposite, definition to the FAQ #16:

Ganging Antennas is a principle used to get a higher gain, this is when you place 2 of the same antennas together next to each other even touching side by side pointed at exactly the same direction in order to get a stronger gain by combining the signals together.

Stacking Antennas is used to point two or more antennas at different towers and combining them together to bring you receptions from different sources

In FAQ #16,

this statement:

Side-by-side ganging is just one of the ways of ganging antennas, and it is a way of (hopefully) increasing gain in one direction, which Channel Master did pefectly with their original CM4228 antenna by ganging 2 CM4221s side-by-side.

to me, is identical to the example given under the stacking definition in FAQ #16, as in both cases the same direction (pointing) is implied for each antenna...

Stacking"is the specific combining of 2 identical antennas faced in the exact same direction

Am i wrong, please?

balm, did you not read my post? I don't need to hear what a store has to say. He's a nice guy at saveandreplay but he is new to OTA.

End of this topic.

Hi,

Is it possible to gang two 4221's with a single balun and no splitters,
the way it is explained in the http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/ganging.html#_x0000_i1027 (the 4 way gang section)?

Do I understand it right that such ganging will perform better than the regular
two 4221 gang with a splitter?

I guess that some cutting will be needed. Should the cutting be done where
the original baluns are?

Thanks in advance.

I've personally done a stack with two: In this very thread (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=1008654&postcount=127) Search is your friend in this thread.

Correct me if i am wrong, but isn't the impedance of your antenna half of 75 Ohms? And isn't that a problem?

Or maybe I should just ask what is the impedance of a balun-less 4221?
If I assume it is 300, than two in parallel should be 150?
and after 4:1 balun - 37.5?

Could some one educate me on this subject?

Yep, the net theoretical impedance from the CM4221HD is 300 ohms. They come with a 4:1 balun. Your math is spot on for calculating the two loads in parallel as 150 ohms, and that's why I used a custom 2:1 balun netting 75 ohms. I did try the original CM balun in the middle of the phasing lines but as predicted it really had some problems with the two being in parallel.

an awful lot of people are going the other way and removing the phase lines from 4228HDs to install separate baluns on either half

see ken nist's page
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html
about his use of a 2:1 balun on a 4228HD

I looked through the ken nist's page, but could not find the 2:1 balun construction details.

And mogwai's balun looks like a regular 4:1 to me.
What is the difference between the regular 4:1 half wave-length U-like coax balun and the ken nist's 2:1 balun?

Could someone explain in greater detail?

Thanks

nikiml, check out the recent discussions in this thread:

Baluns (Brands, Designs, Losses, DIY Loops, etc.) (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=100512)

and if you have further balun questions that's the perfect place to ask them. :)

Post #16 in the OTA FAQ gives an overview of combining antennas (including stacking) and you'll find threads here with great info on how to do that successfully with the CM4221HD.

Hi Folks,

After many hours of post searching (in my newbie state of confusion), I've learned that my plan to gang a 4228HD (pointed to Toronto) and a hacked 4221HD (to Buffalo) won't work (dissimilar antennas).

I'm contemplating the purchase of 2 original 4221's, which I would stack (for Toronto channels) and "gang" this with the 4221HD (pointed to Buffalo).

Will this result in the same issues as trying to combine the 4228HD and
4221HD because the 4221 and 4221HD are not identical antennas? (I've probably answered my question here)

ps - won't be using a rotator as the feed will be distributed to 3 tv's. Use of an A/B switch won't work as different family members could be watching different channels on "their" TV.

Thanks/Regards

I would recommend buying 2 4221HD antennas. Face one 4221hd toward Toronto and face one 4221hd toward Buffalo/Grand Island. If your mounting them on the same mast, leave a 25" gap of free air space in between the antennas.

I assume you are in Hamilton/Niagara area. Go to the reception section of this forum and post questions in the thread designated for your specific viewing area. Members within your area will be happy to assist you with answering any questions.

You should also take the time to visit tvfool.com and use your postal code to obtain info on what channels you should be able to get and the direction to aim your antennas at the broadcast towers.

Thanks ota Canuck- I have posted in the appropriate reception section (I'm in Brantford) along with my TV fool data, and have reviewed some reception data in that thread.

My reason for posting here was to ascertain if the "somewhat" similar (that is similar to 4221HD's) stacked 4221's could be combined (ganged) with a 4221HD. Some forum members seem to have been successful at this (combining dissimilar antenna's), though it is not recommended. Perhaps I have misinterpreted some other posts I have reviewed....

Regards...

I have successfully stacked 4221HDs which gets me FOX (WUTV) rock solid regardless of the weather. I have also ganged a 4228HD to the set-up, about 3 feet lower than the 4221HDs which are also aimed about 90 degrees away from the stack- I think the degree of separation is important, b/c it can be tricky with stacking/ganging and having antennas interfering with each other that are too close to each other. You have to be careful in joining antennas- the stack needs exactly the same length of coax into the joiner- the shorter the better. The ganged antenna is joined inside the house.

It can take a lot of experimentation to get the right set up. You might want to consider ganging a 4221HD and a 4228HD aimed in the same direction.

I would like to have one point in the general direction of Toronto and one to face the Barrie area.

The mast I have is a little to small to have them stacked, but I might be able to put them back to back... but will this work?