Personally, I don't think there's a better market than TO for a second team. They have the population and the corporate support to make it work.

you should also include buffalo. you always seem to forget them when you start complaining about this issue.
Buffalo was not mentioned because they have no veto power over Toronto getting a second team.

Late for this thread but my $.02.

Well I know the story is bogus, but I voted yes. BTW, I only voted yes because it would let me get to games more often without one of the teams being the Leafs :p.

We in North America have a strange taboo against second teams in most cities. Granted the really big cities/regions of New York and Los Angeles may have second football, basketball, baseball, and hockey teams, but generally all the others do not (Chicago has 2 baseball teams).

I know you are referring to major professional sports, but in the US there is also a huge following for collegiate level sports, which could skew that analysis. Not an average example, but University of Michigan Wolverines football averaged over 110,000 fans per home game last year. That is almost equal to the entire population of Ann Arbor, the city they play.

Toronto already has a second professional hockey team. The Toronto Marlies. Granted the AHL is not a major professional league, but the fan support is essentially non existent considering the population that surrounds it. Living here in the GTA I get the sense that if it's not Leafs, its nothing.

The supposed hockey fans in Toronto are not that at all. They are Toronto Maple Leaf fans.

In fact I bet it doesn't really matter what sport the Leafs play. They could decide that next year they will not play hockey but enter in the National Lawn Darts League, and the fans would follow them religiously. The fans here are so caught up in making sure their passports are stamped "Leaf Nation" that it doesn't really matter if there is a product on the ice.

Montreal is not the same scenario. I am of course generalizing here, but I find their fans to be very knowledge about hockey in general, and beyond the scope of their organization (and for the record although I have a lot of respect for the Habs organization, I am not a Habs fan).

Another team for my Habs to beat is always ok in my books. :)
;)

If a city like LA, NYC or Detroit can't/won't have a 2nd NHL team then why does Toronto seem to think they can do it?
Actually despite what Wayne Gretzky did for hockey in California, there is still hardly any interest in NHL hockey out there. To read about the Ducks Stanley Cup run you had to turn to past the Surf Report in the paper.
Although being known as ravenous hockey fans, as of the middle of last year Detroit actually no longer has a waiting list for seasons tickets, (including this year even though they are Cup Champions). During the 2006-07 playoffs, they did not sell out a single home game.
In NYC, there are actually 3 NHL teams within an hours driving distance of each other. So I don't think that's comparable to Toronto.

In my opinion if a 2nd team ever went into Toronto or the GTA, they would eventually become the blue collar heroes, and the Leafs would continue to be able to have sellouts with sparse fans actually sitting in the golds after the 2nd intermission. But the seats wouldn't be full for a very long time.

Buffalo was not mentioned because they have no veto power over Toronto getting a second team.

sorry james99 if my reply was rude. my point was there is no way another nhl team will be in toronto. if it's going to be anywhere in southern ontario, it will be hamilton. buffalo then would have a say in that.

Toronto already has a second professional hockey team. The Toronto Marlies. Granted the AHL is not a major professional league, but the fan support is essentially non existent considering the population that surrounds it. Living here in the GTA I get the sense that if it's not Leafs, its nothing.

If it's not professional top-level sports then it's nothing.

The supposed hockey fans in Toronto are not that at all. They are Toronto Maple Leaf fans.

In fact I bet it doesn't really matter what sport the Leafs play. They could decide that next year they will not play hockey but enter in the National Lawn Darts League, and the fans would follow them religiously. The fans here are so caught up in making sure their passports are stamped "Leaf Nation" that it doesn't really matter if there is a product on the ice.

I agree that most of us aren't hockey fans, we're Leafs fans but I disagree with you on blindly watching some other sport if the team switched. I'd clean you out on that bet.

Look, I don't know about you but I like to have a rooting interest watching sporting events, particularly hockey games. Since I'm a Leafs fan (help me I know!) that means I'm watching the Leafs vs whoever not Columbus vs Dallas, a game I couldn't care about. There are non-Leafs hockey matches we do watch like the World Juniors, Olympics, Canada/World Cups, etc. because there's a rooting interest Canada vs The World.

Actually there are non-Leafs hockey games that I do watch with interest, that's Sens imploding playoff games... :p (Yeah, yeah, Leafs suck, blah, blah. I want them to suck for two more years to draft a top centre and a top winger.)

Anyways, on topic, I don't think MLSE would allow another team in the GTA for nothing short of an astronomical amount of money something Balsillie is not that stupid to do. That being said I think there's enough hockey fans here, Leafs fans shut out of going to games and anti-Leafs fans that a second team could work. Personally I'd like to see a team in Hamilton owned by Balsillie and if there are two other deep pocket types out there then teams in Winnipeg and Quebec City too. The sooner teams get out of crappy American markets like Nashville, Florida, Atlanta and Phoenix, the better.

It's not as implausible as people think. The Leafs are constantly giving away money to the poorer teams in the league due to revenue sharing. What if Rogers bought the Leafs, then agreed to a second team as long as they were the main broadcaster. Win-win all around. Anything is possible.

Hamilton doesn't make sense. You can't try to rebuild a City by bringing an NHL team. If the City was in the process of rebuilding itself, then sure, a team could be part of it. Balsillie needs to start building up Hamilton now.

Also, could they name the team something more generic, like "Ontario" something? Ontario isn't very catchy.

Why do people keep dreaming about a team in Hamilton?

The league has already said it won't let a team be there because it will kill Buffalo. There are estimated to be 5000 fans a game from the Hamilton/Niagara area crossing the border for each Buffalo game. If there was a team in Hamilton all those fans would go to games in Hamilton and Buffalo would be left out in the cold (pun intended).

It's acutally far more realistic for a team to be in Toronto than in Hamilton. The new owner would only have to pay the NHL "squatting" fees to MLSE if the team was in Toronto. If it was put in Hamilton the fees would have to be paid to Buffalo and Toronto. A prospective owner would be looking at close to $100 million (on top of buying the franchise) in fees to put a team in Hamilton.

To everyone who want a team in Winnipeg or another market in Canada, all I can say is good luck. Fan support at the stadium is one thing, corporate support is another. The real money in professional sports is in the TV contracts. Sad to say, but if you can barely fill a staduim on a regular basis, do you think people are going to watch it on TV? As an advertiser are you going to spend your limited budget to advertise during a game that doesn't even make the top 10 in it's home market? Look at TV ratings for the Flames, Oilers and Canucks when they play. The weeknight games get beat out by shows like CSI, Corner Gas even 90210. Even the weekend games are beat out by made for TV movies on Saturday nights. Why do you think so many of the games have gone PPV? To make the hard core fans pay for it as no one else is watching them.

Who knows if a team will end up anywhere in Canada anytime soon, but it's all speculation at this point.

Why do people keep dreaming about a team in Hamilton?


Perhaps because it will happen when Bettman leaves. Mr RIM already sold season tickets once, it won't be the last time either.

Buffalo will survive.

I would sooner like to see the Winnipeg Jets or another team than to see another team in Toronto.

If Minnesota can get hockey back (North Stars and then the Wild) I don't see why Winnipeg or Quebec couldn't get another opporunity.

I think that Winnipeg would sooner welcome back the Jets han the Nordiques in Quebec City and there is a bigger market (and now a bigger venue - MTS Centre) to accomodate.


Remember the Hartford Whalers? not too many remember them compared to the Jets but I guess it is a Canadian thing. IIRC the Avalance was the Nordique that actually prospered and won the cup several times.

I think that Winnipeg would sooner welcome back the Jets han the Nordiques in Quebec CityIf you see the movie Bon Cop Bad Cop you'll see how badly the Quebecers hate Bettman and wish they had the Nordiques back! :D I agree about Winnipegers never giving up on hockey so I'd love to see both cities get NHL teams again.

Hamilton has been waiting much longer than both of those cities to get back their NHL team.

Hamilton won't get a NHL team, cuz if they do, Toronto would want one too. lol