Ok - what's the deal with how subtitles (the ones actually part of the movie - you know when someone is speaking a foreign language) are shown on DVDs. I went to a lot of trouble to create masking for my 16:9 screen so that I won't see those gray bars on top and bottom. But - they put the subtitles in the space *below* the movie. Great idea but then I can't read them.

Same problem with the XBOX HD player, which uses the upper portion of the screen for the darn menu.

You would think that when the movie is 2.39:1, they should put the sub-titles within the boundaries of the image, not outside them assuming you have a larger screen.

Is your DVD player set to 16X9? If it is, then the player should put the subtitles within the boundaries of the image.

Why on earth would you create masking for your 16:9 screen? There are lots of shows (on HD channels) and movies (e.g., Bee Movie) that are 1:78 so you will always be loosing some of the contents. :confused:

The masking is removable. I only put it in place when watching a 2.39:1 movie. All other times, I leave it in 16x9.

You would think that when the movie is 2.39:1, they should put the sub-titles within the boundaries of the image...I think the only group (small but vocal) backing up this approach is the one having CIH setups (Constant Image Height) using panamorph lenses to utilize every bit of lighting a projector can offer. The rest prefers the text not to screw with the image. IIRC, BD (or was it HD) allows to move the subtitles within the 16:9 frame (keep in mind that HD/BD encode the whole 16:9 frame including black bars, unlike XBox Live that encodes only the image area). This would accomodate both groups.

ALthough the best solution would be letting the user position the text, ive got to say that Id take the text in the black area any day.

Why would you ever want the text to interfere with the picture? Not to mention that makes the text harder to read.

I imagine the last thing on the filmmaker's mind when determining where to place the subtitles is: "I wonder if putting them in the black area will bother those (few) people who have masked their HT projection screens for 2.39:1 movies..."

I would expect that the primary concern is more likely - and more sensibly - whether or not layering changing text onto the video footage will detract from the cinematography and the impact of the visuals.

Thanks - this is a real bummer. Many people prefer to have a 2.39:1 ratio to better reflect the majority of movies. I spent a lot of time building a masking system only to find the issue with sub-titles. There should be an option in the BD menu specifying the aspect ratio of the screen so that the sub-titles can be properly located.

In the original theater production, they had to account for showing the sub-titles in the frame, so they should offer that version as well.

Arrrg.

On a tangent topic: I don't like subtitles.
I know it's considered almost a crime in Canada to dub foreign movies, but I prefer it over subtitles. First, reading distracts from watching the picture.
Second, it's sometimes hard to fit (and read) a proper translation in the timeframe alotted. That cuts corners in delivering the message.

The most recent movie with this problem - Lust, Caution. A more distant - Infernal Affairs.
Also, the two movies made by the "Wanted" director, Day Watch and Night Watch.
An older example Run, Lola, Run.

In each case the subtitles were somewhere between losing some of the message (details) to inventing stuff not in the original (to simplify plot).

On regular DVDs some players, perhaps more specifically some PC based ones, will actually allow you to move the sub-titles.

This feature is used mostly by the constant height guys with variable masking.

In SDVD sub-titles are carried as a separate stream (usually) and this allows them to be moved. I'm not sure how they are managed in BluRay.

I could swear there was more discussion of moving subtitles somewhere, but I can't find it now!

My Oppo BDP-80 moves subtitles vertically which is great when I show a 2.35:1 film on my 2.35:1 screen. However, I just rented a movie ("The Closet") which seems to have the subtitles burned into the film. The player does not recognize that there are subtitles! And unfortunately they have chosen to put them in the (normally) black space under the picture so I cannot enlarge it without losing the subtitles!!! Why would anyone do something so stupid!!!!!

I would direct you back to eljay's original comment three years ago:

I imagine the last thing on the filmmaker's mind when determining where to place the subtitles is: "I wonder if putting them in the black area will bother those (few) people who have masked their HT projection screens for 2.39:1 movies..."

Firstly, what percentage of people have 2.35:1 screens? I would suspect probably less than 0.01%? Secondly, how many of those people want/need/use subtitles. Perhaps 10%? I suspect therefore that they are catering to the vast majority of people.

when i use the built-in zoom on my Blue Ray player to zoom in a 2.35:1 movie to fill in my 16x9 TV, the sub titles will be moved from the black area to the viewable image area. i know this is not what you are trying to acomplish, but it is something I have done so yes they can be moved

You can position the subtitle wherever you want if you use Oppo BDP-93 and.or Oppo BDP-95

Sorry to be so long geting back. I guess I wasn't clear. In this particular movie the "subtitles" do not exist as far as the player is concerned. They are part of the movie and can not be turned on or off or moved. (I have the Oppo and am very familiar with how to move regular subtitles.) If they had used regular subtitles, then everyone would be happy. Those with 16:9 screens could have them in the black area while those of us with 2.35:1 screens could position them in the picture. But they didn't do this - the subtitles are fixed where they are and cannot be touched in any way. Hence my anger.

Later addition: This movie is in French and another problem with having the subtitles "burned in" is that French speakers in North America cannot turn them off. I imagine that would be extremely annoying! However, it looks like the French version (available at Amazon.fr) has "real" subtitles./ Which brings up a question: Can I play a PAL DVD in my Oppo?

if the disc is region free, you can play PAL DVD on the Oppo but the output will still be PAL so your TV should be PAL capable.

In terms of Blu-ray, all around the world use ATSC so regardless of origin, as long as they are region A or all region, you'll be able to play them no problem on any HD TV

^^^^
I have one region 0 (IIRC) PAL DVD. It plays fine on my old Zenith DVD player and even displayed properly on a JVC analog NTSC TV. However, my Samsung Blu-ray player, connected via HDMI to a PAL capable TV refuses to play the disc.

I've found that is available in Blu-ray in France (with English subtitles!) So that will solve the problem -- although at some cost since I already have the DVD!! Have to decide if it is really worth it.