@DigitalRocks,

* Look for a pre amp with a low noise figure. 10G201 = Noise Figure: <3.0dB VHF,< 2.6dB UHF. RC9260 has NF of .5Db. Proven $100 Pre amps usually around 2.5Db NF.
* Also another excellent feature that amps should have is an FM Trap. 10g201 has that also.
* Separate VHF/UHF inputs. One thing your 10G201 doesnt have.

In my opinion, A pre amp should basically be strong enough to negate future loses. 4 way splitter = -7db. 100 feet of rg6 cable = -6 Db. Therefore 16 DB is pretty indeal gain. (10G21 = Avg. Gain: 16dB VHF, 22dB UHF)

To strong Db gain will create serious Overloading issues. A strong local channel will appear on other channel rfs. This can cause channel loses. For example, Im using a $5 amp. <4Db Noise. +28Db VHF +22 UHF. plus 4221 clone antenna. anywayz, I can watch CBC on ch 24. The problem is there is no CBC on 24. Plus on the test TV CBC also bleeds into 34 & 46.

Read ya l8r,
Al

PS.
According to tvfool. My overload values are:
Ch10 -5.9 (to -21 when switchs to DTV)
Ch40 -15 (to -22 when switchs to DTV)
Im Assuming the Overload number for Ch69 would be like -20 for analog.

DigitalRocks,
Does anyone think a stronger amp would help?...I think using a mega gain amp like a CM7777 or another with extreme gain like that *might* cause problems with possible overload in that area. The Detroit's are red hot signals up there. Using too much of a preamp for such locations may not affect local reception all that much but the weak distant stations might be diminished more or even lost. Of course YMMV.Phil you seem to be getting better reception now with your new setup by switching from a combo antenna like I have (mind you yours is a bit bigger and has more gain I think) over to the CM4228.I didn't switch to another antenna setup totally... it's just used for when I want to check out Cleveland area reception. Plus...I kinda spoke too soon on the better signals with the 4228 as there was much in the way of tropo around the time I put it up in the tree. Over the last week I have indeed seen many of the stations I pick up with it disappear or are now too weak to get. It did rock last weekend on the tropo I got from the southeast from OH,WV,VA though. Compared to the combo on the roof, it is slightly better but not significantly better (maybe 10-30% higher signal). I didn't expect the 4228 to perform miracles anyway. It DOES pick up some VHF-hi channels, but multipath is worse than a actual real VHF antenna.

Height makes more of a difference than antenna gain around here with the large ridge, the small hills and the many trees.

to anyone...
OT.. ongoing interference problems worsening..

I am having a continuing HUGE interference problem to where EVERY weak digital channel is nearly or totally trashed by big erratic signal fluctuation almost 24/7 365. I tried many things to find out what might be causing this including... total preamp removal (raw antenna feed through 80ft coax to Tuner), testing in zero multipath conditions (dead calm out), testing with antenna pointed in every direction, testing with multiple antennas, trying indoor antennas.. and the signal issues still exist. It easily resembles multpath but I know it isn't that at all. I hope my tuner isn't failing already.. I don't currently have another tuner to test with at this time. The only thing I can see is some new interference has popped up in the area that wasn't there back in the spring/early summer. Wish i had a scope to see what is happening to the ATSC waveforms. When some of these stations are checked with an indoor antenna the fluctuations are less but still noticeable. Sometimes early in the morning hours the digitals stable out a bit but this is rare and it never lasts more than an hr or so at best. Happens in all weather conditions as well. Almost all digitals are affected to some extent but these are the worst/most easily wrecked by it so far.
Channels affected: (from most affected to least by RF channel)

1.WEWS 15 - almost unwatchable with any antenna
2.WMYD 21 - jumps wildly from 0-80-30% etc Never did this last winter-spring
3.WKYC 17 - Same as WEWS but no where as bad
4.WUPW 46 - originally weak so jumping signal causes signal loss.
5.WTVS 43 - Was worse before their 600kW upgrade
6.WDIV 45 - Most times okay but at times 100-50-70-0% and back (varies)
7.WJW 8 - Same erratic jumping signal to the point of dropouts.
8.WXYZ 41 - strong enough to overcome this interference almost always

+ any tropo channels do the same thing like CKXT 19,WLNS 36, WVPX 23 and more when they come in. VHF seems the least affected but still it exists on that band too. Nothing like this happened about 5 months ago with the exact same equipment and conditions. Oddly some stations don't seem to be affected at all like WNWO 49,WKBD 14, WGTE 29.

When i check 20-0 analog where there should be just snow, there is some strange picture bar/interference but it's not a tv station. There are other analogs with strange artifacts at times other than snow too like CBC on 64 (fine squiggly vertical lines) and bursts of semi translucent bars in some other weak UHF analogs. This 'some interference problem' has been getting worse and worse since I noticed it in the late spring.

I recently did a side by side comparison tuned to WEWS on my HDTV and CHWI 16 on a 14" analog set.. when CHWI changes scenes in a tv show or when commercials are running it totally causes the signal strength to plummet back and forth and I get nothing but pixelation. Could this be a operational problem with CHWI-TV 16 where they might be having a unknown problem with their NTSC transmission?

CHWI goes off the air at 330-5am and displays just a test pattern on weekdays. During that time I observe that WEWS nearly stops with the dropouts and fluctuation. About the only thing i can think of is to try another tuner, run TV/preamp from inverter for grid isolation, notch out CH 16 and 22, block all frequencies above ch 51 [700 mhz]?... I'm stumped at this.. it's destroying my TV viewing as I knew it earlier in the year. No longer can I watch weak UHF digitals like I had been able to from such places as Cleveland,Toledo,Tropo channels. :confused:

Anybody else around this area noticing rapidly fluctuating signal issues since the summer?

Does anyone think a stronger amp would help?

The goal is to maximize the signal to noise ratio.

You can achieve this by:
1. Installing an antenna with high gain.
2. Installing said antenna as high as possible.
3. Minimizing signal loss to the receiver with low loss high quality cable.

Installing an amplifier with high gain will only increase the amplified noise along with the signal and may cause overload issues. You would get more bang for buck by having the best UHF antenna you can afford and placing it as high as you can. Then if you need amplification, install a moderate gain preamplifier to overcome splitting or long cable runs to the receiver.

control bleed from CFPL on channel 10.If you wanted to...a UVSJ can be had for real cheap and could be used anywhere in your coax run to attenuate any and all VHF while passing UHF.

...kind of a trade off there with the DB-8 it seems... weak on low uhf might not bode all that well for RF15 and RF17 across the lake.

you don't want to attenuate 11 and 13, either... WTOL (11) and WTVG (13) are already pretty weak from coming all the way from toledo...

...kind of a trade off there with the DB-8 it seems... weak on low uhf might not bode all that well for RF15 and RF17 across the lake.
no prob here with those two stations. WEWS-DT continues to be the best beast to pull in from the Cleveland market @ RF 15 (when tropo is evident).

I can only speak from my experience, and most of it is well documented. Ever since I have installed the DB8, rotor, and preamp I have been a happy camper. I have been receiving Erie's FOX 66-1 RF 22 very decent since the tropo season has left. It has been nice to watch the World Series and some Erie local news from the bed in the evenings.

I had been thinking about a combo antenna there for a bit to see if I could pull in Erie's hi-VHF RF 12, Cleveland's Fox 8 on RF 8, or for the better part Detroit's Fox 2 on RF 7, but aside from those three what else would be the point?

With my rotor set towards Erie for the winter I think I won't play around with it when the weather gets below 32 degrees. Plus I have my cable subscription as my main television watching.

Any thoughts on this? Would like to compare notes with others - both Panamark and I are at fairly high ground locations in town, and I'm 5km further south, so I would think my results for DTV out of the USA should be comparable if I amp, and can control bleed from CFPL on channel 10.
indeed CFPL 10 is a big issue but I found many of the high powered FM stations just as bad. using a decent pre amp with a FM trap has made a world of difference. The Channel master 7778 has been a beast vs CFPL 10 and continues to provide reliable service even in the face of overload from it. I can't say the same about a different one I tried that crapped out every time.

RingtailedFox, I don't think anybody has reported yet reported success from WTOL,WTVG in London so far...

@ Pana

Good to hear. I wonder what the problem is here with all the jerky jumpy signals since the summer. I may never find out. At least right now aside from some random drops to zero for WOIO,WJW the reception is amazingly stable from the CLE market compared to all other nights past. I really like getting some of these channels more often with the tree4228. Cold and calm has been better in terms of stability even though I loose some channels.

FYI for those who don't know yet.. WEWS has been on a temporary antenna at 191 meters above terrain @ 843kW on a nearby tower since shortly after the transition. They were at 285m @ 870kW on their main tower before the transition. They were supposed to go to their final digital facility 310m @ 1000kW by the end of Oct but I know that isn't the case yet as it is slightly weaker then even the higher up and super nulled WKYC most nights.

That extra 119m height and power will be very beneficial to me here as well as you fellow Londoners up there. You might even get the 5-1 powerhouse everyday. :p

my mistake. i thought you were having trouble pulling in 11 and 13 in Leamington. :)

@panamark
What preamp were you using before going over to the 7778? that one is more powerful then the 7777 if im not mistaken correct?


11 & 13 have been pretty solid signals for myself out in east windsor... i can be pointed anywhere from 160-250 and they come in. (210 degrees) I've been leaving the rotor pointed at Toledo for the most part, and i pickup most of Toledo and all of Detroit.

Also anyone know when WPXD ION is going to Southfield? TVfool in thier recsent database update has put them in that location.... should be nice having them closer.... they'll be solid like the rest of Detroit locals. Wikipedia says its happening 'in the near future'.

@ Stampeder
+1 on the split. Great idea. London and area posts seemed to have been drowning in a sea Windsor area posts lately.

@ Digitalrocks
I believe Mark used a Winegard HDP-269 preamp, but had horror stories about them. I think he went through like 3 of them (they all fried) before giving up.

Specs on the 7778 vs. the 7777 are almost the same except, the 7778 has 3db less dB uhf gain and 7 dB less gain on vhf side. Hope this helps.

The above list was supposed to show that the actual channels do not necessarily start at ".1" or "-1" like their virtual ones. The substituted link doesn't show this and I wouldn't want to show data without proof. My original link was changed to protect the innocent. :)

Was in the Windsor area last weekend; many more antennas than Hamilton, that’s for sure. In the city of Windsor itself- roof tops were the majority- the Detroit stations must be easy to get- probably not bad indoors too. Out in the country, towers were the norm.

Noticed a few OTA shops on Tecumseh too, east Windsor I think- wanted to stop in, but time didn’t allow it.

Cheers to the lucky OTA-dogs in Windsor!

P.S. Stayed at the HI downtown/near the tunnel- the room TV was a big ol’ tube device- picture quality was terrible- seemed like the hotel had it’s own CATV set-up plus cable/sat. feed. Some of the channels were atrocious (ghosting/snow)- definitely needed some filters, better amplification, new RG6, etc….

My post above refers to one that was moved to "OTA Station Status: SW Ontario, Lake Erie, Lake Huron" post # 285 (unless it was moved again).

the Detroit stations must be easy to get

I just put a set of rabbit ears on the floor in my basement and still picked up 12 stations.

Nester, that's because there's a huge transmitter farm in Southfield, MI... a whopping 18 miles from Windsor. their signals boom into windsor through absolute everything, with WMYD-DT 21 being the absolute strongest, and WKBD-DT 14 and WDIV-DT 45 being the flakiest, but by no means weak. i'm sure if you just stuck a small wire or even nail clippers next to the antenna-in jack of a TV, you'd pick up something.

Goforit, that ghosting is what i get every day on channels 9, 32, and 54. 32 seems to fare somewhat better, 16 gets trashed from the distance, and 60 comes in loud and clear (being only a mile east of me at best)

Dido for me on RingtailedFox post...

I am aware of the close proximity of local transmitters. The purpose of the exercise was to show goforit just how easy it is to receive signals here.

I am aware of the close proximity of local transmitters. The purpose of the exercise was to show goforit just how easy it is to receive signals here.
Man, you guys are so Lucky!! I'm seriously thinking of moving back to Windsor.

Drove through Leamington on Sunday and seen a 40-50 foot tower (maybe higher) with three CM4228HDs mounted on a boom, all aimed at different markets and what I think is probably Radio Shack's largest outdoor combo with rotor on top of that. Didn't have a camera with me but I'm sure one of the locals could get a shot. The house is on the west side of #77 between new #3 and old #3 (closer to new).

indeed, I have seen this set up you are talking about up there in Leamington. I even sent Phil81 a message regarding it when I seen it there back at Easter time.
Would love to know how effective it is.

If only the Canadian stations were available in digital.