My Samsung SIR-t451 set-top box tunes only digital channels...
<snip>
The Samsung re-maps any channels that use the PSIP. I can press either 5 or 20 on my remote to receive CBC-HD. It displays on-screen as 5 only (not 20). Same for all re-mapped channels. The actual digital channel number is never displayed once it's in memory. The channel up\down button follows the re-mapped sequence as well.
I too have the t451, which is not the most recent model, but at one point in time was a very well regarded tuner.
Note that all digital channels use PSIP. Nothing would be displayed otherwise. I think you were referring to stations using remapping as GeorgeMX was referring to that. To make it less confusing, consider remapping a sub-function of the PSIP stream. If you think of a kitchen as the PSIP stream, it's kind of like putting a warm beer that's been sitting on the counter (undesirable channel allocation) in a cold fridge (remapping); you don't have to do it, but the user (station) can do so at their discretion. Sorry,... but I like beer related analogies, even if they are stretched :D

But what is interesting to note is that the t451 does not have the capability of accepting a sub-channel inputs from the remote, such as GeorgeMX described:
If a manufacturer implements the virtual channel function correctly, it appears that both the major and minor channel number (ie. MAJOR.minor) must be entered on the remote to tune a digital channel, otherwise the set does not know which sub-channel to select if a multiplex of program services exist.
When the user selects a digital channel, the t451 assumes the 1st sub-channel if available.
ie for FOX 14.2 (remapped to 29.2), I would enter either:

[1],[4], which would tune in channel 14.1 and remap to 29.1, and then surf to 29.2
[2],[9], which would tune in channel 14.1 (if it was stored in memory) and remap to 29.1, and then surf to 29.2. If digital Channel 29 is not in memory, nothing would display.

Based on GeorgeMX's comments, I believe this is a manufacturers' functional difference. My in-laws LG HDTV functions similarly to GeorgeMX's Sony. However both of these TV have both analogue and digital tuners. STB's which are designed to only tune digital signals might be a different story.

So the issue remains to be seen. For this reason I would like to agree with bigoranget:I'm SURE that WPXJ will probably virtually map to 51.1 and WNLO will virtually map to 23.1
...but I'm not sure that I can at this point. I think that the outcome of this scenario will be tuner/manufacturer specific.... assuming that WPXJ will be broadcasting on 23 of course.

I agree with 99gecko - there has not been an identical implementation of PSIP channel handling across tuner manufacturers, and that's a crying shame given the importance of the analogue to digital transition.

Viewers will likely have to fend for themselves on how to tune in all the appropriate stations on their own gear, and not necessarily rely on instructions from their neighbours and friends. As it is, people have a hard enough time describing to eachother how to find a program when one person is on OTA, another is on Cable, another on Satellite, etc. etc. etc. so this might end up being more of the same.

Last week I hooked up a friend's HDTV to his 30 year old tower. He has been watching SD cable for the last 2 years and thought it was HD.

I scanned in 5 Toronto HDs (no CITY) and all 7 Buffalo HDs. He was blown away by the National in HD on CBC and don't laugh American Idol.

I tried to explain that CBLT is on channel 20 UHF but he tried telling me, 'No it is on 5'. We here at DHC and other places understand PSIP, signal strength and remapping but the general public does not have a clue.

This is why stations NEED to start stating both their channels in Canada and in the USA. CFTO if you read this, start telling people you are on channel 9, cable 8 and DT 40!!!!!!!!

I've been reading this thread for a while now and I am confused about why people are so upset with PSIP re-mapping. And the example of dsspredator's friend illustrates exactly why channels are so eager to keep their original "channel numbers."
I tried to explain that CBLT is on channel 20 UHF but he tried telling me, 'No it is on 5'. We here at DHC and other places understand PSIP, signal strength and remapping but the general public does not have a clue.I figure with a modern TV, with a remote control, and no dial to turn, the first thing a consumer (ie. not someone who typically reads these forums) is going to do is what their TV or set-top box manual tells him/her to do - Scan for channels. And funny enough, what did dsspredator do instead of trying to punch in 20.1 to see if CBC came in? He did a scan for channels... (sorry dsspredator! ;) )

So once you've scanned, PSIP comes into effect straight away, and all the stations are in relatively familiar (based on old analog assigments) locations on the menu/list/"dial" - CBC will be at (or near) channel 5, and you'll never see what the real UHF frequency of the channel you're watching is. And you won't ever care. If a new channel ever comes out in your reception area, odds are you'll use your TV menus to "Add Channels" rather than trying to discover the Physical Channel and tuning it directly.

I like to think of the example the old telephone switching system. In the distant past, the first 2 digits of the phone number you were assigned would be based on which general area you lived in (you can see this illustrated here http://spacing.ca/wire/?p=2756) Nowadays, software switching at the telephone company premises removes this limitation and lets a customer move their phone number (one of their "identities") with them almost anywhere (OK, within the same area code, granted, but you see my point) - This is analogous to what TV stations are trying to do with re-mapping.

I have a Sony HDTV. CBC-DT is on physical channel 20 in Toronto. If I tune channel 20 with the remote, I get snow. If I tune 20.1, I get a blank screen. If I tune 5.1, CBC Toronto's virtual channel number, I get CBC-HD. I think this is how virtual channels are supposed to work.
Try punching in 20.3 - You should see what you usually see on 5.1 - I think that PSIP maps the MPEG Program Number (in CBC's case, MPEG Program Number 3 has their main channel - I discovered this using TSReader Lite and my ATSC PC TV Tuner card) to the Minor Number of their PSIP Virtual Channel remap. On the other hand, if you look at WGRZ, their main channel is in MPEG Program Number 1, so punching in 33.1 will get you the same as punching in 2.1
I have a feeling that the MPEG Program Number is either a) totally arbitrary or b) some default based on the MPEG compression hardware/software being used at the channel's broadcast facilities (or wherever it is that their signal is converted to an MPEG data stream before being sent up the transmitter tower and out onto the airwaves.) Try a succession of different "minor" numbers for a bunch of the Physical Digital channels and see where the data is - it tends to vary - I think the highest I found was 39.5 for WIVB.
So the second thing PSIP accomplishes in this case is to allow for an arbitrary MPEG Program Number to be remapped to a more logical Virtual Channel minor number for the public. (I haven't read details on PSIP, but this could allow a station to make some changes to their compression setups without interruptions to the viewing public)

So really, with two possible levels of remap going on, why would it make sense for a broadcaster to advertise their Physical Digital channel? If we go by the example of dsspredator's friend (amongst countless others, I'm sure) it's not going to encourage someone to disconnect their CableTV connection, attach an antenna to scan for OTA HDTV. The only times I see the Physical Channel being an issue is for the edge cases in which people can receive 2 channels who both use the same re-mapped Virtual Channel number (a case I would think that the FCC or IC would attempt to minimize.) In these edge cases, I would also assume that there might possibly be an issue of a physical frequency clash. (If you're in a fringe area for 2 regions and can get signals from both, perhaps your gear is good enough that the FCC/IC isn't accounting for you when doing frequency assignments) - PSIP remapping means you'll see both channels - without remapping, you'll get neither channel.
For folks aiming an antenna with a rotor, figuring out the relative direction of the broadcast towers before they perform a channel scan should be all that is needed. Knowing the frequency is not really necessary when the TV will scan all the allowed frequencies during a channel scan in any case.

CFTO if you read this, start telling people you are on channel 9, cable 8 and DT 40!!!!!!!!No, stop re-mapping altogether. They are on DT40, it should display DT40.
Just because the NAB conned the FCC into doing so (I'm sure it's the same situation on your side), it doesn't have to be that way. :mad: I've been reading this thread for a while now and I am confused about why people are so upset with PSIP re-mapping.Simple. It's confusing and deceptive. Period!
People get use to company name changes, let them get use to number chages.

scruffy416 wrote:

So really, with two possible levels of remap going on, why would it make sense for a broadcaster to advertise their Physical Digital channel?

Well, for one thing, how is the the viewer of 5.1 supposed to know he needs a UHF Antenna and not a VHF-Low antenna?

TVl

Well, for one thing, how is the the viewer of 5.1 supposed to know he needs a UHF Antenna and not a VHF-Low antenna?


Well, again, assuming a consumer (as opposed to enthusiast) mindset, anyone buying an antenna will buy one from a honest, reputable antenna salesperson, who will advise them what they need. I guess that argument falls apart if you're doing the mail-order thing, however.

Additionally, in how many locations would a consumer be in position where no UHF reception capability would be required? So in the above situation, buying an antenna with VHF-Lo capability might be more expensive, but I don't think it would lose the consumer the ability to receive 5.1 at all.

Another thing I'd like to point out about the remapping - TV Stations would incur an expense at having to re-brand themselves. Whether it was simply the cost of new letterhead, or more likely a large ad campaign trying to get their new channel number out to the public, you can be sure that somehow or other, the public would end up paying for it. Either with more commercials during primetime (after the complaints to the CRTC/FCC about the costs incurred due to forced re-branding) or by a delayed DTV transition (with most stations doing a flash-cut to avoid a re-branding)

TV Stations would incur an expense at having to re-brand themselves.

Not really. WNYO easily changed from 'WB49' to 'Mytv Buffalo WNYO TV/DT'.

Then Feb. 09 they can just drop the TV.

Many other channels just call themselves 'CBS Detroit' or 'FOX Chicago'. No numbers.

The beauty of virtual channel numbers is really apparent when a station will revert to the original physical channel for the digital signal after the analog shutdown. For example, if CFTO Toronto goes back to channel 9 for digital then use of the 9.1 virtual numbering makes perfect sense. Any promotion of channel forty just causes confusion. The same is true for stations without a permanent digital channel for use after August 31, 2011, for example City TV and Omni 2. Both stations can continue to use their current channel identification.

The really neat use of virtual channel numbers are the virtual numbers above 69 that permit a network to have the same numerical identity on every transmitter regardless of the physical channel. All the Omni 1 repeaters could have the same virtual number.

Of course, the lower channel numbers might be used if Canadian broadcasters decided to co-operate. TVO has been on channel 2 and Global has been on channel 3 for decades in major Ontario cable markets. Perhaps they would like to have those numbers across the province for OTA. The minor numbers might be used for identifying the actual transmitters to avoid confusion where two transmitters can be received in the same area, for example Global Toronto and Global Paris.

Knowing the frequency is not really necessary when the TV will scan all the allowed frequencies during a channel scan in any case.Untill you find out your VHF antenna doesn't do a very good job on UHF channels since you thought CBC digital was still on the low band. TV Stations would incur an expense at having to re-brand themselves. We can take up a collection. ;)anyone buying an antenna will buy one from a honest, reputable antenna salesperson, who will advise them what they need. Is that one selling one of those HD antennas? :rolleyes: if CFTO Toronto goes back to channel 9 for digital then use of the 9.1 virtual numbering makes perfect sense. The key word here is IF.

With CIII-DT currently testing and remapping to 2.1, the same as WGRZ, perhaps now is good time for people to get a "virtual lesson" in how well their tuner handles remapping conflicts.

Mine: http://digitalhome.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=724728&postcount=31

Why would they choose 2.1????

Tandberg is doing the installation for Global CIII-DT and things are simply in test mode so PSIP hasn't been straightened out yet and they are therefore remapping to 2.1 for now. There's a thread covering that.

Their own commercial said they would be going to 7 by February and that they would be carrying sub channels.Still not approved on the FCC site but shows that they have applied for their antenna near 300 metre mark on WKBW tower which is about 3/4 the way up and be directional to the north.The original application was at the top of the tower.Do you think they will remain as a sub-channel of WKBW-DT?, and be receivable in the GTA on CH-7?

Do you think they will remain as a sub-channel of WKBW-DT?, and be receivable in the GTA on CH-7?
I think you're confused between the physical and logical (PSIP) channel numbers. Here's the story TODAY

Physical channel 7... WKBW is currently broadcasting analogue (NTSC) on physical channel 7 (7.0)
Physical channel 38...

WKBW-DT (ABC) is broadcasting on 38.1 (PSIP 7.1)
WNGS-SD (RTN) is currently broadcasting on 38.2 (PSIP 7.2)
WCSN-SD (downright terrible SD, I might add) is currently broadcasting on 38.3 (PSIP 7.3)



As of Feb 19, 2009 (barring a last-minute change of mind)

Physical channel 7...

WNGS-SD (RTN) will be broadcasting on 7.1
One or more subchannels

Physical channel 38...

WKBW-DT (ABC) will be broadcasting on 38.1
One or more subchannels


Where will WCSN go? If it becomes 38.2 or 7.2, it'll hopefully get more bandwidth than it does today.

I think thenewdc meant to pose these as 2 separate questions. I know I am interested in the answer, as I have become a fan of WNGS.

After WKBW vacates channel 7 analog and WNGS puts a digital transmitter there:
1 - Will WNGS still be available as a sub-channel on WKBW's digital undertaking as well as on their own digital channel 7?
i.e. will WNGS be on 38.2 as well as 7.1?
2 - What are the odds the new WNGS digital channel 7 signal will make it up to the GTA?

I think that if the new channel 7 digital is strong enough for receivers in the GTA to pick up, then question 1 will be less of an issue. But if the new digital channel 7 is low powered, then having the option of receiving WNGS as a sub-channel on WKBW would be a nice alternative for those of us in the GTA.

That said, I'm not holding out much hope for WNGS remaining as a subchannel on WKBW's digital undertaking. They show no Canadian commercials I can see, so they really have no reason to pay to make their channel reach Ontario. I guess the same reasoning would hold out for running a transmitter powerful enough to reach the GTA.

And on the WNGS subject, anyone know what resolution their new primary digital channel will be running? Seems like a bit of a waste for them to be running it at 1080i for all of the old 480i-shot content they'd be showing. I'd think it would make more sense for them to take on WCSN to run on a sub-channel, to share some of the costs of running the new digital transmitter. If they ran their primary channel at 480i, I'm sure they could squeeze in another couple of channels to spread the cost out even more.

Does their FCC channel application mention any of these details?

The actual signal for WNGS is fed to the CH-67 transmitter on analog, and to WKBW via a downlink from Galaxy G10R. Its actually broadcast from Equity Broadcasting's Headquarters in Arkansas. Its also a Free-to-Air signal. The quality of the FTA digital DVB signal is so-so. I doubt they will have any HD whatsoever because of the way they are broadcast, unless WKBW can feed HD to their transmitter locally. Who knows what their plans are at this point. In my last post, scruffy got it right as to what I was infering. I would like to see the sub-channel broadcast on WKBW or 38.2 remain, just in case the Ch-7 Digital signal does not reach the GTA. They will likely be licensed for 15 KW ERP on Ch-7. The analog signal of WKBW currently on Ch-7 comes into the GTA quite strong and its easy to receive, but in the previous post, the HAAT will be lower than the current height of WKBW's main antenna, so that could make the signal harder to receive.

That said, I'm not holding out much hope for WNGS remaining as a subchannel on WKBW's digital undertaking. They show no Canadian commercials I can see, so they really have no reason to pay to make their channel reach Ontario. I guess the same reasoning would hold out for running a transmitter powerful enough to reach the GTA.
This begs the question... if they're going to be a subchannel on 38, then why bother running their own transmitter in the first place??? I don't see the logic of that, at all. Therefore, I don't think they'll remain as 38.2. Note, however, that channel 7 is MUCH better at over-the-horizon propagation than UHF 38. Channel 7 is DTV's "beachfront property". I think that even with a lower HAAT, they'll still be receivable in the GTA.

And on the WNGS subject, anyone know what resolution their new primary digital channel will be running? Seems like a bit of a waste for them to be running it at 1080i for all of the old 480i-shot content they'd be showing. I'd think it would make more sense for them to take on WCSN to run on a sub-channel, to share some of the costs of running the new digital transmitter. If they ran their primary channel at 480i, I'm sure they could squeeze in another couple of channels to spread the cost out even more.
They're going to have to do SOMETHING to meet their "kiddie content quota". At one point, the FCC used a really anal interpretation of the rules, and all DTV subchannels (except PBS) got knocked off the air because the subchannels didn't meet the "kiddie content quota". So how are they managing to keep UHF 67 on the air, or are low-power UHF stations subject to laxer rules? They'll need some children's programming, somehow.

Looking at their schedule on TitanTV, I see 3 MLB games next weekend, spread over Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. That could be broadcast in high-def when they get their own station.

What would make sense (but isn't guaranteed to happen) is for them to run a high-def channel on 7.1, with some sports and "kiddie quota programs" and leave most of the RTN stuff on 7.2. This would actually allow them to maintain some of the "brand identity" they've built up.

What are the odds the new WNGS digital channel 7 signal will make it up to the GTA?Probably the same chance CITY 53.1 will make to down to Buffalo. ;)

WKBW is making $$ almost any way WNGS (and that other disaster of a channel) wind up since both are leasing space either on their tower or as a subchannel. The problem(s) with that WCSN are more that just reduced bandwidth.

The current WKBW analog ch-7 comes in great at my location, so I would think that when WNGS moves to ch-7 next year, it should reach here as well.