No i doubt that .I only know they installed the antenna for it on the tower.

Did I assume something wrong somewhere? I thought that channel number re-mapping was only a temporary item during the digital/analogue overlap, when stations are broadcasting identical programs on 2 separate channels. And when the transition is finished, the re-mapping is going to be dropped. Right now, WKBW wants channel 38 to pass as channel 7.

But what happens after the transition when WNGS takes physical channel 7? Surely, WKBW won't want to retain its branding as channel 7. It would drive some tuners batty. And will WGRZ really want to retain 2 and WIVB retain 4?
I have never seen anything about dropping channel re-mapping post analog shutdown. If the customer is tuning based on the virtual channel number then why create confusion by going to the physical channel number? The virtual channel numbering scheme is required to support the historical channel branding as I described in my previous post. Further, if you have a low VHF channel your station is first on the virtual channel list unless your TV or computer card gives you the ability to re-arrange the channels and you take the time to do it. Broadcasters have long believed that it is better to be at the beginning of the list rather than somewhere in the middle.

With respect to the tuner getting confused, I don't see any problem. The virtual channel number is linked to the physical channel frequency in software. The tuner only cares about the frequency, not the fact that it happens to be designed as a particular analog channel number.

Some people will get confused when they enter a channel number without the subchannel (7 without the 7.1) and the tuner interprets this as a request for analog channel 7. Post analog shutdown they may well be surprised the first couple of times when the virtual channel number somewhere in the 50s or 60 appears but they will learn to use 7.1 for WKBW.

I am surprised that WKBW didn't elect to go back to channel 7 after the analog shutdown. I think it is likely the best channel based on propagation and electrical power consumption per watt of RF power. Of course, channel 7 may be assigned in a nearby US market and have interference issues or directional antenna requirements to manage. The other reason is WKBW has made a huge investment in their channel 38 transmitter and antenna system, and may not be able to afford a second change to get back on 7 in digital.

So far, only one station in the Buffalo market, WNED PBS, has chosen to use the virtual channel identification matching the new physical channel (43). The PBS station draws a large part of its audience from Canada and I think they recognise that almost all of it watches on cable so the channel 17 identity is less important.

The PBS station draws a large part of its audience from Canada and I think they recognise that almost all of it watches on cable so the channel 17 identity is less important.

That and WNED has not branded itself as channel 17 since the late 1990s

With respect to the tuner getting confused, I don't see any problem. The virtual channel number is linked to the physical channel frequency in software. The tuner only cares about the frequency, not the fact that it happens to be designed as a particular analog channel number.

Some people will get confused when they enter a channel number without the subchannel (7 without the 7.1) and the tuner interprets this as a request for analog channel 7. Post analog shutdown they may well be surprised the first couple of times when the virtual channel number somewhere in the 50s or 60 appears but they will learn to use 7.1 for WKBW.
I foresee a "You can't get from here to there" situation. You buy a new TV and set it up the first time...

You enter 33 on the remote control. It gets re-mapped to 2 (WGRZ). From then on, whenever you enter 2 on the remote control, you'll be taken to physical 33.
You enter 39 on the remote control. It gets re-mapped to 4 (WIVB). From then on, whenever you enter 4 on the remote control, you'll be taken to physical 39.
You enter 38 on the remote control. It gets re-mapped to 7 (WKBW). From then on, whenever you enter 7 on the remote control, you'll be taken to physical 38.
You enter 7 on the remote control, and you'll be taken to physical 38. Oops.

To quote the textbook... it is left as an excercise for the student to determine how to lock onto physical channel 7. To the blackboard GeorgeMX ;)

1. For most people, take the easy route and let the TV scan the channels. Digital sets try to do this by themselves at the first opportunity. Post analog shutdown, the TV will only find digital stations and all tuning will occur through the virtual channel numbers.
2. How the remote control interface works probably depends on the manufacturer. In my experience, entering a number without the sub-channel (the .number) results in the set tuning to the analog physical channel. On my Sony, if I select 9, I get CFTO analog while 9.1 gets CFTO digital.
I don't think there is a real problem here, at worst the viewer will have to make the set rescan.

it is left as an excercise for the student to determine how to lock onto physical channel 7.Viewers already face the channel numbers game if they try to use a paper TV Guide that tries to cover several BDUs and OTA channels in one grid. What a mess, but if you know what you're looking for you can figure it out.

Does anyone know if the FCC is going to allow stations to continue remapping after the analog shutdown?

I know to many people that can't understand why WKBW analog 7 is also on DT 38. These stations need to start telling people their new channel. For example WGRZ says visit us on digitial 2-2. They should tell people to visit on 33-2!

At least stations like WFXT FOX 25 Boston put a tiny DT 31 in their logo.

Yeah, that will be an issue especially in Burlington-Plattsburgh-Montreal where ABC will go from 22 to 13 and CBS will go from 3 to 22 post-transition. I hope they will ID themselves on the actual channel they are on.

Channel remapping is defined as part of the ATSC standard, so I don't see it going away. With the Canadian cutover happening in 2011 we'll be having the "dance of the channels" happening at least until then. Hopefully by then things will have settled into a stable set of channel assignments and remaps. I agree that it will be up to the stations to clarify to their viewers how they do it, and maybe even why.

I agree, this remapping business will have to end after the analog shut down. It's very confusing for people who don't know what is going on, but simply want to watch TV. WPBS-TV 16 in Watertown, NY & WNPI-TV 18 in Norwood, NY seem to be indicating on the screen that WPBS-DT is on 41 & WNPI-DT is on 23.

Hopefully they will all start to refer to the new Channel assignments. because this might become a problem later on. What if a channel is remapping itself on Ch. 7 while transmitting on Ch. 15. And if there is another Ch. 7 actaully transmitting on Ch.7. Whose 7.1 goes through?

Channel remapping is defined as part of the ATSC standard, so I don't see it going away.
In the greater Buffalo area (receivable here in greater Toronto), there will be at least two problems...

WNGS has changed its digital election to 7, which WKBW currently re-maps to
I believe that a religious channel has elected 23, which WNLO currently re-maps to

Something has got to give. Right now I can enter 5 on my remote control, and the TV gets CBLT (physical channel 20). I can also enter 20, and with no re-map to 20 present, it'll select physical 20, which re-maps to 5. What will it do when there's BOTH a "physical 7" and a "logical 7"? And in the LSA (Litigious States of America), there will be lawsuits flying around, unless the FCC bans re-mapping outright. It's too bad that PSIP re-mapping couldn't have been 6 alphanumeric characters. Then stations could've re-mapped to their callsigns, and numeric confusion would've been avoided.

I really don't think the problem is as big as people are making it out to be.

For example in Buffalo; WNGS will broadcast physically on channel 7, however chances are it will map to 7.2 (which is how WKBW maps it) or it will map to 67.1 (which is were it broadcasts on analog).

WPXJ will broadcast physically on channel 23 BUT it will likely map to 51.1

I think it will be MUCH less confusing if the channels map to their current analog assignments.

I would not be surprised if the FCC started giving out PSIP assignments in addition to the physical channel assignment.

Does this have to be this complicated - let the FCC figure it out! The atsc tuner is going to do all the work anyway and display the channel on your Tv however it sees fit. For the handful of channels most people get ota you can see what channel your watching anyway by looking in the lower left hand corner in most cases! Fox is Fox - CBS is CBS no matter where you live!

It is an interesting topic for some folks, so I don't have a problem with a thread like this. :)

Does this have to be this complicated - let the FCC figure it out! The atsc tuner is going to do all the work anyway and display the channel on your Tv however it sees fit. For the handful of channels most people get ota you can see what channel your watching anyway by looking in the lower left hand corner in most cases! Fox is Fox - CBS is CBS no matter where you live!
Not necessarily. If you need to re-orient your antenna depending on channel, you need to now the "true" frequency to able to detect it.

CBS is CBS no matter where you live!

But I will bet that WGRZ will want to continue saying '2 on your side' not '33 on your side'.

I think they all should just says something like NBC Buffalo WGRZ DT-33.

No confusion. If you want people to watch, they have to find you.

The atsc tuner is going to do all the work anyway and display the channel on your Tv however it sees fit.
Yeah, but, will it display THE CHANNEL THAT I WANT?

For the handful of channels most people get ota...
Handfull? Errr, uhmmm...
WGRZ 2.1
Weatherplus 2.2 (SD)
WIVB 4.1
CBLT 5.1
WKBW 7.1
RTN 7.2 (SD)
WCSN 7.3 (SD)
CFTO 9.1
WNLO 23.1
CBLFT 25.1
WUTV 29.1
CITS 36.1
WNED 43.1 PBS national feed
WNED 43.2 (SD) PBS Buffalo feed
Thinkbright 43.3 (SD) Educational
CITY 57.1
SUN 66.1

The 2 OMNI's have been on in test mode occasionally, and Global promises "Real Soon Now", but I don't really expect to watch that much of those 3 stations. I'll probably watch more analogue TVO than the digital OMNI's plus Global combined.

Indeed, Walter! But don't forget WNYO (49.1), even though they can be hard to get. :( CHCH are also supposed to start broadcasting "soon", too. Oh, and there's also TBN (26.1, I think?), though I haven't gotten them since the summer---no big loss. Once you include TVO and a very snowy iON, it adds up to quite a few handfuls!

Yes- handful as these are what I get- and yes I'm thankful for CBC!

2.1
2.2
4
5-
7.1-7.3
23
26
29
43.1-43.3
49

So will they be on VHF then since they're going to physical channel 7?