eugeneo,
Actual City TV is on 53 and 57 (confused yet?)

57 is the analogue (NTSC) channel.
53 is the digital (ATSC) channel. The digital tuner in your TV or set-top box reads the PSIP data which is part of the digital broadcast stream, and performs channel remapping so that it appears to the viewer to be on channel 57. Broadcasters do this is for various reasons, but namely branding. There are other channels in the Toronto/Buffalo broadcast zone that are doing this as well, for example:
Since CFTO broadcasts their analog signal on channel 9, they broadcast their digital signal on channel 40, and it is remapped to channel 9 (actually channel 9-1).

There used to be a post about this in the Knowledge Base, but I did a scan and I can't find it - I must be going blind. :)

cheers!

p.s. Just a side note of interest:
In the ATSC standard, the analogue signal is given the designation of "-0" (ie CFTO analogue is designated as channel 9-0, with CFTO-DT as channel 9-1 of course). There are some HDTVs that are capable of providing an integrated OTA NTSC/ATSC (combo) channel list. This is where you might see a channel 9-0, 9-1, etc in the same channel line-up. Of course the analogue channel would not have any associated guide or other PSIP data carried with it.

p.s.s. sorry. I found the missing post. It is actually an entire thread:
PSIP Data as part of Digital OTA ATSC TV (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=49384)

Apparently, CITY TV & the CRTC are whining about the future allocation of ch. 53. This is forceing the FCC to possible change their allocation of 53 to ch 23 for WPXJ in Pavilion (actual xmitter location 10 miles SE of Batavia).
??? First of all, remember that channel 53 disappears as of the analogue shutdown. The American TV dial will only go up to channel 51 February next year. I don't see the point of WPXJ setting up a digital transmitter today, and switching to another frequency 13 months from now. At least in the case of CITY, the Canadian shutdown is a bit over 3 and 1/2 years from today, at which point CITY has to find a new home.

If that happens, would that change things for CITY and their terrible coverage??
Temporarily, maybe. But 3 and 1/2 years from now, it won't matter, because the Canadian TV dial will also top out at channel 51. So why spend money upgrading CITY's transmitter today?

??? First of all, remember that channel 53 disappears as of the analogue shutdown. The American TV dial will only go up to channel 51 February next year. I don't see the point of WPXJ setting up a digital transmitter today, and switching to another frequency 13 months from now. At least in the case of CITY, the Canadian shutdown is a bit over 3 and 1/2 years from today, at which point CITY has to find a new home.


Temporarily, maybe. But 3 and 1/2 years from now, it won't matter, because the Canadian TV dial will also top out at channel 51. So why spend money upgrading CITY's transmitter today?
I agree with you Walter. No point spending money now if a new channel is required in the future. After the US analog shutdown, Canadian stations outside the 7 to 51 range will be able to find new assignments above 6 and below 52.

I expect many of the Canadian stations to apply for use of their existing channels for digital if they are within the 7 to 51 range. Why give up a high VHF channel (ie: CFTO, CHCH, CKCO, CHEX, CFPL, CKNX in Southern Ontario) if you can continue to use the transmission system and antenna for digital? Some newer transmitters currently operating in NTSC can be converted to ATSC with a new modulator and minor modifications. I strongly believe that many Canadian broadcasters will choose to do a flash cut to digital on the existing channel. The NTSC/ATSC simulcast in the US is a product of regulatory requirements that do not exist in Canada.

The Canadian Association of Broadcasters, CBC, other public broadcasters and Industry Canada need to get together and develop a plan to implement digital cutovers on a market by market basis across the country. Sufficient technical resources do not exist in Canada to successfully flash cut the whole country on one night. Cable, satellite, broadcasters, and community TV associations with their own low power re-broadcasters will need time to prepare and test their equipment. To avoid failures and manage implementation costs the cutover process should start as soon as mid-2009 , after the U.S. shutdown. A couple of years of staged implementation will benefit everyone.

But 3 and 1/2 years from now, it won't matter, because the Canadian TV dial will also top out at channel 51.Hello, I work in the wireless telecommunications industry and might have some insight for you. Are you stating this as speculation or hard fact? It has been some time since I have spoken with them but contacts I know at IC Spectrum Management and Telecommunications earlier last year gave me no reason to suspect this has been established, or will be in the near future. IC under bilateral agreements with the FCC determine where and when Radio Frequency international incursions are allowed. These agreements are living documents and are renegotiated on an ongoing basis, as the bandwidth requirements of the two countries are in flux. Under the CRTC in Canada, the onus is upon the individual broadcasters to ensure their radiated pattern does not exceed sovereign jurisdiction, as defined under these agreements, with the denial of license as a potential penalty for violations being held over their heads. Broadcasters will avoid this scenario at all costs. Broadcasters have the right through application to modify their contour, if they so desire if updates to the international agreements limit future Radio Frequency incursions .

Best Regards.

First of all, remember that channel 53 disappears as of the analogue shutdown.Actually I completely forgot about that. Also, apparently the engineer from WPXJ did also, or didn't know since nothing in the phone conversation I had with him was ever brought up. Then why was 53 assigned to them in them first place?? They apparently have/had no intention of simulcasting.
I thought Canada didn't have this limitation. :confused:The NTSC/ATSC simulcast in the US is a product of regulatory requirementsThat doesn't seem to apply to them. All they have is their analog channel. Nothing was said about digital in the conversation other than the problem with Canada (which was brought up many times).

Ok, what will CITY TV have after the dust settles?? You are saying Canada has to vacate anything above 51 also by 2011??

Since videobruce and 39sfa are asking similar questions, I'll answer them in one post.
Then why was 53 assigned to them in them first place??
Take two nearby metropolitan areas in different countries, with their own networks (Toronto and Buffalo). Throw in some remote signals from another couple of markets (Rochester and Hamilton). The TV spectrum is crowded to begin with. Now add in a temporary doubling up where most stations are occupying 2 channels (1 NTSC and 1 ATSC). There is simply no way to fit everybody into the space 7..51. Deal with it. And the only possible way is to temporarily assign digital channels in the 52..69 range. Once the analog channels shut down, space will open up, and permanent assignments in the 7..51 spectrum made. It's not called "transitional digital broadcasting policy" for nothing.

Ok, what will CITY TV have after the dust settles?? You are saying Canada has to vacate anything above 51 also by 2011??

Are you stating this as speculation or hard fact? It has been some time since I have spoken with them but contacts I know at IC Spectrum Management and Telecommunications earlier last year gave me no reason to suspect this has been established, or will be in the near future.
This is speculation on my part. I realize that if Canada asks for and gets exclusive use of a 6 mhz block of spectrum near the US border, the FCC doesn't care whether it's used for cellular or an ATSC channel or an NTSC channel, or whatever. It's 6 mhz that the FCC has to keep its hands off.

Having said that, there are pragmatic considerations that lead me to believe that Canada will follow the lead of the US.

Canada's population is approximately 11% that of the US. From a pragmatic point of view, we have to follow their standards if we want cross-border cellular roaming.
I'm sure the Canadian government wouldn't mind the cash to be had from auctioning off cellular spectrum
It's not as if there'll be a shortage of spectrum in channels 7..51.

The current squeeze is a temporary artifact, due to most TV stations broadcasting on two channels simultaneously. After the analog shutdown, there will be a bunch of channel space opening up.
If anything, it will be possible to put MORE stations up in the same area. NTSC doesn't function well with ADJACENT-FREQUENCY channels. Other than 4/5, 6/7, and 13/14, you cannot have numerically adjacent channels in the same market. You max out at approx 34 channels in the 2..69 space in one market. With digital, you can use adjacent channels. E.g. 32 (The CW), 33 (NBC), and 34 (My TV) in Buffalo, along with 35 (CTS) in Hamilton. You max out at 44 channels in the 7..51 space per market, after allowing for the radio astronomy reserved channel.
Sub-channels can piggyback on main channels (e.g. NBC Weatherplus on 33.2) for additional SDTV channels, rather than hogging a whole 6 mhz.

As of Feb 17, 2009, there will be no need for American market TV sets to tune any higher than 51. After UHF channels 70..83 were de-allocated, manufacturers stopped making TV sets with tuners that tune in 70..83. I'm sure that they will similarly stop making tuners that tune in 52..69. By the fall of 2011, there should be increasing numbers of TV sets that can't tune in 52..69 OTA. This would reduce the potential OTA audience for any station foolhardy enough to accept an assignment on those channels.

Apparently WPXJ won't be using their 'temporary' assignemnt since CITY TV is whining/crying too much.
Would someone get them a handkerchief. ;)

Back to speculation. Assuming PXJ is forced to use ch. 23, which would make 53 (and 51) open channels, anyone want to venture about the possibility of 53 changing their directional pattern since they won't have any channel to protect anymore??

I doubt very much that they would go up and change their existing antenna for 53,57.They would be allowed to increase power if their analog signal went off.The problem is the power 1200 watts not the pattern that sents a null toward Batavia NY.Buffalo/Niagara gets almost as much power as everywhere else.If you can receive analog city but not digital then its a power issue.

If you can receive analog city but not digital then its a power issue.Their analog isn't directional is it??

City tv is using the same antenna for both analog and digital ,they both have the same antenna pattern.The null in the pattern is toward Batavia NY .Buffalo direction does get signal just 1200 watts will not go that far before the signal is too weak to receive or go thru anything.

Has 57 always been directional, or is this somewhat recent??
How about 20 or 30 years ago??

I think City -tv Toronto has always been a little directional.Videobruce can you not even receive their analog signal.Rich from RW antenna he reports fine reception of 57 and 53 from WNY.

The reason he gets it i'm sure is because of the 40' or so tower he has and the huge parabolic antenna setup - I'm sure this helps with the reception :)

Jimdoo he also reported reception with using winegard Yagi 9032 either at home or his office cannot remember which on a 40 foot tower.

rob50312; I always used 57 as a reference. 30 or so years ago I could barely receive it (with a smaller all band antenna and no amp). It was barely there, usually all I would see were the vertical blanking interval when it wouldn't lock. Now, I can see the image, but I wouldn't consider it watchable in any sense if the word. It is the weakest of any station that I can receive from Ontario. 52 is the next weakest.Rich from RW antenna he reports fine reception of 57 and 53 from WNYShould read; "fine reception from Niagara county". He is 20 miles closer. ;)

Ok, how about ch. 52? Slightly stronger signal, but still not really watchable.

Sun analog 52 is a much weaker transmitter but not directional.52 at 30kw from FCP building.While City analog is >310kw at the top of CN tower.So it must be the directional antenna that makes it weaker.I think those antenna pattern pictures are very misleading as to reception areas with directional transmitters.

I am surprised no one has posted the link to the FCC's DTV Final Channel Designations (http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-07-138A2.pdf) in this thread yet. It takes a bit of interpretation to read as it uses the station's "Facility ID" instead of its call sign, but from it you can see that in 2009:


WUTV-DT will remain on 14
WNYB-DT will revert to 26
WNLO-DT will remain on 32
WGRZ-DT will remain on 33
WNYO-DT will remain on 34
WKBW-DT will remain on 38
WIVB-DT will remain on 39
WNED-DT will remain on 43
WNGS-DT will start transmitting on 7
WPXJ-DT will start transmitting on 23

thanx Rogers, thats a cool link.

Think you can find a canadian link for the same info for TO stations?

WNGS-DT will start transmitting on 7Actual 7.1, or where they are now 38.2 (7.2)? WPXJ-DT will start transmitting on 23Someone better tell them about it since I just talked to their chief engineer and he doesn't know about any final decision whether it will be 51 or 23. :rolleyes:

BTW, that link failed (typical for the FCC).

Link works:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-07-138A2.pdf

WHEC ROCHESTER (DT 10) will only be 5.9kW. That sucks.