Excellent point about the CRTC and satellite stuff, Walter, and I would add that a building permit might also be necessary from the municipality, and there may be other laws/bylaws to consider.

In the reception thread for Northern BC are a couple of posts about the non-profit Fort St. James TV Society and what they have been doing with their MATV system. It might be revealing towards what Walter has said.

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=284054&postcount=9

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=379642&postcount=51

bobbonet,
Although I personally disagree that what you are proposing could be considered a BDU, since I would think it would qualify under the not-for-profit exemption, the law is the law.
A quick search of the CRTC website found this:
Mandatory Orders Issued Pursuant to Subsection 12(2) of the Broadcasting Act Concerning the Operations of Unlicensed Broadcasting Undertakings in Vancouver, British Columbia (http://www.crtc.gc.ca/archive/ENG/Notices/1995/PB95-156.HTM)
Rogers (i.e. the competition) complained to the CRTC that a condo was illegally "operating an unlicensed distribution undertaking". The CRTC agreed in this decade+ old case.

Reading further into the CRTC site, it appears that there are certain criteria that must be met to be exempt for licensing. You would have to investigate these.


good luck,
99gecko
I am speculating here: I could only guess that an existing BDU might argue to the CRTC that a MATV system adds value to the direct commercial viability of the condo corp, and thus it cannot be considered non-profit.

Good find 99gecko. According to Public Notice CRTC 1989-47 (http://www.crtc.gc.ca/archive/ENG/Notices/1989/PB89-47.HTM), the following is conditions must be met to be exempt from the requirement to hold a broadcasting licence. Section 3 defines what you are describing as the "not-for-profit exemption."

Criteria for Exemption

1. The entire undertaking:

(a) is located exclusively on land owned or leased by the person carrying on the undertaking, or, in the case of an undertaking carried on by a condominium corporation, by such corporation or any of its members; or

(b) is effectively controlled by and provides service only to an educational institution, including residential buildings owned by and forming a part of such institution.

2. The undertaking is not connected by any form or means of transmission, apart from the direct over-the-air reception of conventional broadcast signals or the direct satellite or microwave reception of services

(a) to any land not owned or leased by the person or persons described above, or

(b) over any public street or highway, except in the case of an undertaking carried on by a condominium corporation, or by a registered cooperative society, all of whose members reside on the land on which the undertaking is situated, or by an educational institution described in 1.(b).

3. (a) No separate charge is levied or direct commercial gain obtained for the use of any part of the undertaking or for any service provided thereover, except for a charge levied in proportionate amount on subscribers to recover:

i) interest on money borrowed and depreciation, maintenance and administration expenses as reasonably incurred by the operator of the undertaking in connection with the establishment and maintenance of the undertaking, and

ii) the reasonable charge or fee payable by the operator of the undertaking to the distributor of a service or to an agent appointed by the operator of the undertaking to act on its behalf in arranging and administering agreements with service distributors.

(b) No operator of an undertaking shall have any legal or beneficial ownership interest in any third party providing to the operator, for that undertaking, any services for which separate charges are levied with respect to the matters authorized under paragraphs 3(a)(i) and (ii), unless a contract was entered into on or before 18 May 1989, in which case the application of this subsection to that relationship will only become effective upon the expiration of the term of the said contract.

4. All signals of local Canadian television stations are distributed over the undertaking, in each case with no degradation of received signal.

"Signals of local Canadian television stations" means the signals of all television broadcasting stations licensed by the Commission having Grade A "official contours" (as defined in the Cable Television Regulations, 1986, as amended) enclosing the area in which the undertaking in question is carried on.

5. No service received over-the-air or by satellite or microwave transmission is distributed over the undertaking, other than a service that the Commission by regulation, condition of licence, or otherwise has authorized the licensee of a broadcasting receiving undertaking serving the area within which the undertaking is located to distribute on its undertaking, whether or not the licensee is actually distributing the service.

Subject to paragraph 4 above, the signals distributed by the exempt undertaking need not be identical to those signals distributed by the licensed broadcasting receiving undertaking serving the area, so long as they are signals of affiliates of the same network.

6. A greater number of the video channels of the undertaking are devoted to the distribution of Canadian programming services than to the distribution of non-Canadian programming services.

7. No feature motion picture locally originated is distributed over the undertaking.

heee, hee, hee
or

(b) is effectively controlled by and provides service only to an educational institution, including residential buildings owned by and forming a part of such institution.
If everyone in bobbonet's condo took a weekly cooking/art/knitting course offered in a common room, would that work???

Or... watching PBS together? I wonder if he could get away with that.

I live in a building, and I would love it if they did that in here. It's an eleven-story building right beside the border of Mississauga and Brampton.

Right now, the jack (?) in the wall is only for cable users, which is a bit unfair. There's even a channel 59 where you can view the security camera downstairs and see who's coming in/out -- it's great to see when someone is buzzing you from downstairs for entry, and you want to see who it is before picking up the phone, or, see who it is when you have no idea in hell who it is! But sadly, they only provide that channel for Rogers Cable users...

You're doing an awesome service for your building. I could only imagine the signal strength if we had a couple Channel Master 4228s up there above the eleventh floor, instead of relying on a Silver Sensor.

Here's my interpretation. IANAL. Run this past a lawyer. One item that isn't addressed by items 4 and 6 is whether an ATSC station that duplicates an NTSC station is counted seprately or not. What about ATSC sub-channels? Get clarification from the CRTC on this.

Criteria for Exemption

1. The entire undertaking:

(a) is located exclusively on land owned or leased by the person carrying on the undertaking, or, in the case of an undertaking carried on by a condominium corporation, by such corporation or any of its members; or

(b) is effectively controlled by and provides service only to an educational institution, including residential buildings owned by and forming a part of such institution.
It says a) OR so a) should be sufficient.

2. The undertaking is not connected by any form or means of transmission, apart from the direct over-the-air reception of conventional broadcast signals or the direct satellite or microwave reception of services

(a) to any land not owned or leased by the person or persons described above, or

(b) over any public street or highway, except in the case of an undertaking carried on by a condominium corporation, or by a registered cooperative society, all of whose members reside on the land on which the undertaking is situated, or by an educational institution described in 1.(b).
If the antenna is on the condo building's rooftop, that should be OK.

3. (a) No separate charge is levied or direct commercial gain obtained for the use of any part of the undertaking or for any service provided thereover, except for a charge levied in proportionate amount on subscribers to recover:

i) interest on money borrowed and depreciation, maintenance and administration expenses as reasonably incurred by the operator of the undertaking in connection with the establishment and maintenance of the undertaking, and

ii) the reasonable charge or fee payable by the operator of the undertaking to the distributor of a service or to an agent appointed by the operator of the undertaking to act on its behalf in arranging and administering agreements with service distributors.

(b) No operator of an undertaking shall have any legal or beneficial ownership interest in any third party providing to the operator, for that undertaking, any services for which separate charges are levied with respect to the matters authorized under paragraphs 3(a)(i) and (ii), unless a contract was entered into on or before 18 May 1989, in which case the application of this subsection to that relationship will only become effective upon the expiration of the term of the said contract.
If it's run out of the condo's "consolidated revenue", and the condo doesn't own shares in any TV stations, you look OK

4. All signals of local Canadian television stations are distributed over the undertaking, in each case with no degradation of received signal.

"Signals of local Canadian television stations" means the signals of all television broadcasting stations licensed by the Commission having Grade A "official contours" (as defined in the Cable Television Regulations, 1986, as amended) enclosing the area in which the undertaking in question is carried on.
The system would be required to carry all local Canadian stations that broadcast OTA in Laval.

5. No service received over-the-air or by satellite or microwave transmission is distributed over the undertaking, other than a service that the Commission by regulation, condition of licence, or otherwise has authorized the licensee of a broadcasting receiving undertaking serving the area within which the undertaking is located to distribute on its undertaking, whether or not the licensee is actually distributing the service.
You can only carry channels that ExpressVu, or StarChoice, or you local cable company is allowed to carry, subject to the next paragraph.

Subject to paragraph 4 above, the signals distributed by the exempt undertaking need not be identical to those signals distributed by the licensed broadcasting receiving undertaking serving the area, so long as they are signals of affiliates of the same network.
Instead of the exact same channel, you may carry another affiliate of the same network.

6. A greater number of the video channels of the undertaking are devoted to the distribution of Canadian programming services than to the distribution of non-Canadian programming services.
You must carry more Canadian channels than non-Canadian (i.e. American) channels. You've probably got several local stations in the Montreal area, and maybe 1 or 2 marginal "distant" Canadian ones that a rooftop antenna can pull in well. Subtract 1 from the total number, and that's how many American (or other country via satellite) channels you can carry.

7. No feature motion picture locally originated is distributed over the undertaking.
You can't hook up a VCR or DVD player or anything similar, and play a movie over the system.

The system would be required to carry all local Canadian stations that broadcast OTA in Laval.

I would re-word this all stations that are intended to be received in Laval. Thus all of the Montreal stations must be provided (you can't filter out 12 to try and get 13). Assuming there aren't any stations North, East or West of you, all you should need is one antenna pointing south and you will meet this requirement.

I was hoping to convince the others in the condo building to add a few more dishes as well as an ota antenna to the roof, so we could pick up a bunch of the stations listed as free-to-air on www.lyngsat.com. Some foreign-language stations would be a good way to a few others in the building to agree to the costs. I gather this would be technically possible using only the wires provided by the existing dish, but might fall afoul of the CRTC?

The satellite feeds are free for all to receive, we'd be able to watch them if we lived in houses, why should the crtc be able to tell us what we can watch just because we live in a building? </rant>

borgninee:

Just to be clear, this thread is for the discussion of Over-The-Air or OTA reception. Not Free-To-Air satellite or FTA reception.

OTA is free for you to use, personally.

As soon as you start a commumity, (which will inevitably involve funds), its not for personal use anymore.

You start infringing on copyrights and treading on the toes of BDU's who are in business to make money. They pay liscense fees and taxes for the right to carry and that right will be protected by law.

There is a whole great big canadian broadcast indusry, of which I am a very small part of, and my livelyhood depends on, who you are trying to shortcut.

And we take that personally. :rolleyes:

Tom.F.1,

Please note that I appreciate and respect that you earn your living (as do other OTA DHC'ers) in the "great big Canadian broadcast industry".

However, what bobbonet is investigating is to add OTA to a non-profit condo under the assumption of complete compliance with the Industry Canada legislation and CRTC regulations as legally afforded to him by those two bodies.

These same two bodies, the CRTC and to some extent IC, provide the same protection of your income and as well as the protection of the entire great big Canadian broadcast industry. Please note he is not trying to circumvent or "shortcut" the industry, merely get what is allowed for him under the law. It is the same for all of us who have digital OTA - maximum bang for their buck, as they personally see it.

If it is lawful for bobbonet to add OTA to his condo (which is what this thread as evolved into), it would be done to supplement the existing DTH sat service. At that point, IMHO it becomes an arguement which belongs in the Pro's & Con's of going OTA/ATSC thread (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=32200), as it is a perfect example of what is the value of BDU service vs. OTA. IF the BDU cannot provide the service or quality desired then bobbonet is entitled to get that service/qaulity by whatever means are legally affordable to him.

If you're refering to adding OTA + FTA to an existing condo as per bourgninee post #28 above, I will not comment or respond as I don't know enought about the subject as well as Cyclism's reminder.

Please note that this was not meant to be personal, merely to clarify that no one is suggesting that anyone is trying to put you out of business.

I for one appreciate, respect, and enjoy all reading all of your posts in the OTA forum.

cheers,
99gecko

Edit: I would hope you could see it as potentially increasing the installation side of the great big Canadian broadcast industry business, because that is what it really boils down to in my opinion.

We definitely don't want to get into FTA or the Pros & Cons stuff in this thread.

Tom.F.1's post is the flip side of my Fort St. James post, so that's the sort of info that can round-out a discussion like this but not define it. They serve to inform/remind people that you just cannot put up an OTA TV antenna and share it with several other residents without considering many consequences.

The focus of this thread is to inform bobonet and all DHC readers of the issues involved in a project like the one he is considering. If the project abides by all appropriate laws and regulations as several DHCers have told us about, and if it is affordable to his strata council, then we can offer advice on how to accomplish it if they decide to do it.

Now that I have thought more about it, I like the CRTC's rules. A slightly different interpretation of them means that any installation of a dish on an mdu requires the inclusion of an OTA antenna. If BEV puts a dish up, then they are distributing a small number of FTA channels to everyone in the building, only providing the CRTC-required local channels to those who pay a subscription. It would not be an enormous jump for the CRTC to require BEV to either 1) provide the local channels unencrypted for everyone in the MDU, or 2) add an OTA antenna to their dish.

This would actually be in Bell's interest, by selling residents dual OTA-FTA receivers, many would abandon rogers for the free OTA and perhaps occasionally pay BEV for additional services.

Hey guys,

I have been away for abit from these forums. It is great to see all the answers. I had abandoned the project after people said it was illegal. Now that the weather is better and that it seems to be legal, I will pursue again.

Thanks

I've read this thread with great interest. Best of luck and keep us posted along the way.

Hey All,

I have had my first meeting with all the Condo people.

They seemed receptive and open to the idea. Now comes the hard part. I need to get a quote on all the costs and the functionality of the whole system.

Anyone from Montreal who can help me out or knows a company that will help me out.

Remember, the wiring is already in the building for Expressvu and for Cable so the costs will be greatly reduced.

Thanks,
Roberto

I would contact the Raybel and Addison dealers in Montreal to find out which contractors they would recommend.

HEy There,

I tried contacting them and not only did they say they had no stock, they didn't know when it was coming in.

For the antenna, I will have to order it for sure. As for someone to help install, they weren't too helpful.

I may have to ask the people here to help out.

Thanks

To install contact MontCalm they are still doing installation.

Thanks Kro,

Awesome. They will install it for around 400-500$. I will present this estimate to the condo board and see what they say.

I will most likely go with a VHF only antenna as this will be for HD channels. The condo board isn't really interested in the 2-3 extra analog channels we will be getting.

I will aim to get this approved ASAP and hopefully get it installed this week!!!

Thanks,
Roberto