ECM blowers actually don't save any electricity in electric resistance heat systems; they produce less waste heat than conventional blowers which must be compensated for be slightly more run time.

Reducing heat loss should be your first priority; have an energy audit done before making changes to the HVAC system.

The Zuba-Central and Acadia by Hallowell International offer an interesting alternative if their claims of working down to -30C are true.

It probably needs some supplemental heat in extreme cold.

I thought ECM blowers were more efficient? The saleperson stated that they cost 1/3 to run compared to older non-ECM blowers. I am confused.

Both the Zuba-Central and Acadia apparently can provide heat well below -10C even without electrical resistance heating. The Zuba provdes 100% heat at -15C and 80% at -25C. Both systems offer electrical resistance but at much lower requirement than a traditional heat pump. The 3 ton Acadia has a 4 kW add-on which is much less than the 20kW I was quoted for a traditional heat pump. At -26C, the output is 30,000 BTUs which increases to 46,000 BTUs with the 4 kW booster. See graph below.

With respect to my HVAC, I need to replace it - the sequencers keep failing. It's just a matter of whether I replace it with a high cost system such as a Zuba or Acadia or with another low cost electric. The cottage is well insulated with new windows so not much opportunity there other than a rebate for the heat pump.

I am interested if anyone has any experience with either of these systems and if they live up to their claims.

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/picture.php?albumid=466&pictureid=2168

I thought ECM blowers were more efficient? The saleperson stated that they cost 1/3 to run compared to older non-ECM blowers. I am confused.

They are more efficient, but the excess energy consumed by standard motors ultimately gets converted into heat anyway.

ECMs can only save money if the primary source of heat is more economical to operate than electric heat strips. (Heatpump with a good COP or fossil fuel furnace)

If you choose to stick with direct electric heat, get an heatpump ready air handler (heat strips, space for a coil upstream) in case you change your mind at a later date; the outdoor unit brand/size will have to match that of the air handler.

With respect to my HVAC, I need to replace it - the sequencers keep failing.

Ask your contractor if they can be replaced with real contactors. (not sure, I think it depends on what brings on the fan during a call for heat)

i had an estimate done for zuba-central $16000..

wow expensive.. my car did not cost that much.

i have read that the main problem with heat pumps is faulty installation.

i must do something however..how do you find a reputable contractor near orillia .

there is no ratings on homestars up here. i have looked at customer ratings on heat pumps and few have good ratings. coleman seems popular.

any advice would help.

thanks

i had an estimate done for zuba-central $16000..

Ouch - almost as much as geothermal once the rebates are considered.

Try getting a quote on a hallowell unit; it might be cheaper. (From what I've read, $10000 - $14000.

A conventional heatpump may not be the best choice for an unoccupied house - a bad defrost board, large snowfall (if it covers the coil), or lots of freezing rain could render the unit useless. (compressor damage may occur if a defrost problem goes unnoticed for months.) An outdoor t-stat or temp sensor may also be required to shut the unit down in extremely cold weather.

Finding a good contractor which deals with heatpumps will be a challenge, since they aren't common in Ontario (colder climate); there is certainly a lot to screw up in the installation when compared to electric resistance heat.

Hi,

"I have read that the main problem with heat pumps is faulty installation"

Best quote in the entire thread

I could write a book on this but decided to look to the future...

For air conditioning yes

For heating not worth it

Based on experiences from 5 relatives 3 friends and myself.

I was in a similar situation a few years ago when I got central air installed (in Gatineau too, Hull area to be exact). One of the salesman was pushing hard for a heat pump. I have a natural gas furnace.

I don't remember all the details but I came to the conclusion that given the temperatures the pump could operate in that it would take too much time to make the extra cost back. My neighbor actually got one anyway when he built the house and it ended up breaking out of warranty (more than 5 years later as I recall) so any savings were actually lost. My other neighbor has one for his pool and it broke after a year. I know of at least a few other people that saw their heat pump break on them (my sister and uncle come to mind). Not sure if this is a widespread thing but these things seem to break easily.

I'm no expert so take this for what its worth... :)

A heatpump is a central air conditioner with a defrost board, defrost relay, crankcase heater, and reversing valve. The additional parts can fail, but shouldn't make a properly installed (that means proper charging by superheat/subcooling, setting blower speed correctly, pulling a vacuum, etc - things the majority of installers probably don't do) and maintained system unreliable.

The other thing is that most residential straight cool units in canada are only used for a 2-4 weeks each year - if that; hence, they shouldn't be compared to heatpumps when it comes to maintenance/repair.

A bet that someone who has only worked with electric resistance furnaces would consider gas furnaces complex by comparison (pressure switches, ignitors, inducer motors, flame sensors, etc fail all the time in modern units) and claim that "they break easily."

Everything of a mechanical nature can and usually does break down once in a while after the warranty period. Nothing is maintenance/repair free.

the high cost of the heat pump and the unknown involving installation may make it just too risky to gamble on..

i am now looking at infared technology. i saw infared heaters at the home show last week and i was impressed by the instant and strong heat which was emitted.

perhaps this could be an alternative..

Electric infrared heaters can save money if they're used to heat people instead of the entire house/building.

For maintaining a setpoint to keep pipes from freezing, inferred won't save anything; all electric heaters are 100% efficient.

You might want to consider keeping the place unheated when unoccupied (shut off water, drain system) Electric heat tape can be used in critical areas to prevent freezing.

thanks txv

this has been helpful.

No problem.

Information I've read, or have been told by pros is: heat pumps are effiecient if used in mild climate areas, less than a 15 degree temp change on avg.
Coastal BC is about the best area to use these as a heat source. We have people with $25-30 month heat bills (not including delivery charge etc) that are using air to air heat pumps.
We've only had our matched 15 SEER 3 ton Payne system for 3 weeks. Our furnace hasn't come on (burners) in that time. Temperatures did get to minus 2C one night.(Pr Rupert area).
We have a relative on Van Is (Chemainus) with a geothermal system. They love it because of the cooling/heating features coupled with very low operating cost.
If I was to install a system in a home that I was going to reside in for an excess of 15 years or retire in I would put geothermal coupled with in floor heating. Electricity and natural gas prices don't have the history of dropping in price.

I live just north of the City of Toronto boundary, near Dufferin+Steeles. A senior citizens' assisted living building is going up next door (yes, it's the one where the crane collapsed last year). They have a signboard about geothermal heating supplied by Groundheat International.

Is it possible to do something similar for a single home? As a retro-fit? E.g. using well-drilling equipment and dropping a metal post 10 or 20 feet into the ground. Have the top half of the post insulated, because temperatures are a lot more constant after the first several feet. This might allow the heat pump to work during cold weather. Any comments?

Oh yeah, don't forget to check for underground utilities before "drilling down".

Ground source heatpumps can be installed in existing houses.

They're extremely efficient, but prohibitively expensive.

"Prohibitively expensive" is a a bit extreme. The cost didn't prohibit me from installing one rather than replace an old oil/AC combination (no NG option out here).

It is cheaper to install if a horizontal ground loop can be used but you need way more than a city lot for that. Although our lot is a bit over a half acre, with our pool in the back and big driveway and septic field in the front there just wasn't enough room. Instead, we have 4 vertical 170' bores about 10' apart so if you have access for a mini-drill rig (i.e. an F-450) and 40 linear feet of ground that's enough for a 4 ton unit. One option is that if your driveway needs to be done anyway they can install a vertical loop between ripping out the old and laying the new.

Installed cost was around $28K. Rebates gave me back about $8K. On my electric bill, I can only attribute about $100 an month to operating it in the depths of winter. Considering that previously, oil fills were getting over $750 (with oil at $40/bbl) and there were multiple per season, I figure I'm almost 1/2 way through my pay-back period after the third season.

Very few people are willing to spend 20-30k on a heating system, even if it's the best efficient setup available. (a typical furnace costs between $3-$5k before rebates)

Considering a zuba vs heat pump matched with high efficiency natural gas hybrid vs just natural gas with 13 seer ac.

WRT a natural gas heat pump hybrid is it best to set it based on an economic breakpoint. So basically once the outdoor temp drops to a level where the heat pump's cop indicates that it would be cheaper to heat with the ng furnace then the system switches?
Is it possible for the controls to have more than one breakpoint set depending on the time of day for when time of use hydro comes into effect?

Is it possible for the controls to have more than one breakpoint set depending on the time of day for when time of use hydro comes into effect?

Not that I know of - you might be able to do it with some creative control wiring and multiple t-stats :p

The Zuba heatpump uses a proprietary air handler t-stat, does it not? Dual fuel may not be an option with the system.

The heat pump in the hybrid system I'm considering is not the Zuba it would be a York Affinity or a Trane XLi16 (2-stage heat pumps). The zuba is being considered as a stand alone. I guess I should say I'm in the Ottawa area