So, out here on the west coast, would a air-to-air heat pump work? Typical winter temps are daytime highs of +5 to +8C with overnight lows right around freezing. A couple times a year, we'll get a few nights where it dips to a "brutally cold" -5C or so (yes, I scoff as well at how warm "bitter cold" is around here, having grown up on the prairies).

What I take from this:
The west coast is ideal for a heatpump.
Prairies, don't even bother.
Southern ON/QC, maybe, depends on how well a specific model works at below freezing temps.
East - not really sure. Depends on your specific location's temps

If you have a already regular gas furnace, a standard heatpump won't do much for you in this climate.

Modern 13+ SEER/8+ HSPF units are extremely efficient (200-300% Vs. 100% for electric) even below zero, but capacity drops off dramatically as the temperature drops. Since oversizing reduces dehumidification, sizing a heatpump for heating will result in problems during the cooling season.

That being said, they can still save substantial amounts of energy (33% or more) in all electric forced air systems. Electric heat strips are typically downstream of the indoor coil, enabling the aux heat and heat pump to run simultaneously. For anyone in southern Ontario who doesn't have access to gas, it's still an option worth considering.

It should be noted that there are air source units available which actually maintain output as the outdoor temperature drops.

1. http://www.gotohallowell.com/
2. http://www.cozyworld.ca/zuba-central-heat-pump.pdf

In colder climates there's no way a heat pump's going to keep up with the heating demand and you're going to be running the supplemental heat more than you're not so most of the cost savings associated with a heap pump go out the window.

That's what dual fuel kits are for - I did calculations and it turn out that a heatpumps costs much less to operate than furnaces when heat strips aren't required. (I can back this up with data if you'd like)

So, out here on the west coast, would a air-to-air heat pump work? Typical winter temps are daytime highs of +5 to +8C with overnight lows right around freezing. A couple times a year, we'll get a few nights where it dips to a "brutally cold" -5C or so (yes, I scoff as well at how warm "bitter cold" is around here, having grown up on the prairies).

That's a perfect climate for a heatpump. -5C is nothing - a couple of heat strips or an existing furnace can kick in when it's "brutally cold."

I have to say that my heatpump is useless below the freezing point and, as such, useless from November to March (5 months). Considering the period when we don't use much heating (May to Sep, another 5 months), that leaves only April and October where it will be able to provide adequate heating. Not only that, I have to manually shut it off in the winter (with the breaker) because the stupid thing will "try" to heat the house even when it is below freezing and will run (for nothing) until the furnace kicks in. Unless my heat pump is not working properly, I don't think it was worthwhile...

It's not set up properly in that case.

You should be able to switch the thermostat to emergency heat to run the furnace alone.

Also with a dual fuel kit or high end thermostat (outdoor temperature sensor required), the changover should be automatic.

A good chunk of november and march are above zero.

I remember back when I was a teen in the early 1980's it seemed like everyone in my Mississauga neighbourhood was installing a Heat Pump on their home... now a days you never hear about them anymore... I wonder why? Was there in those days some kind of Ontario Hydro incentive or credit for installing Heat Pumps?

I know that they were promoting electric resistance heating, but not sure about heatpumps.(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWshVAK0Rtk)

People probably thought that it was a great idea (it still is), but got disillusioned with cold weather performance and operating costs. I'm not sure about the 1980s, but during the 90s natural gas was dirt cheap relative to electricity. Heatpumps were also inefficient, in the range of 6 to 8 SEER and less than 6 HSPF.


A product can only sustainably penatrate a market when prospective customers understand how it's suppose to operate; I can only assume that people expected 2-3 ton heatpumps to run like a 100 000+ BTU furnaces.

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To the original thread starter: The extra premium sounds rediculous - I would shop around. (A reversing valve, defrost board, crankcase heater and outdoor metering device/check valve shouldn't cost an extra two-grand in my unqualified opinion)

HDTV101, that's the same way I first learned about heat pumps - our next door neighbour had one (in Mississauga). I think it has to do with central AC in the first place as it was far less common at that point in time. So it likely went like this: One neighbour installs central AC with heat pump ('cause the sales person sold them on it!), and when their neighbour hears their "air conditioner" running during the winter, they ask the owner what the heck is going on, they explain, and then they get one. And then the cycle repeats.

"Keepin' up with the Jones'" and all that!

That's what dual fuel kits are for - I did calculations and it turn out that a heatpumps costs much less to operate than furnaces when heat strips aren't required. (I can back this up with data if you'd like)


Not sure if I understand, if you're saying that heat pumps are cheaper to operate than a gas furnance if you don't have to use the supplemental ( secondary ) heat? Then I would agree with that. However, I don't think they're cheaper when you're in colder climates when the supplemental heat is comming on.

Not sure if I understand, if you're saying that heat pumps are cheaper to operate than a gas furnance if you don't have to use the supplemental ( secondary ) heat? Then I would agree with that. However, I don't think they're cheaper when you're in colder climates when the supplemental heat is comming on.

Not with supplemental electric heat. (Unless the choice is between propane and all electric)

A heatpump can reduce total heating costs when it's put on an existing gas furnace. Basically the furnace runs below the balance point, which unfortunetely is more than half the heating season in this climate. (There are still many days above zero) Thermostats such as the vision pro IAQ can handle dual fuel applications.

Dual fuel pretty much gives the best of both systems. Whether the additional expense and control wiring complexity (not that complex) is worth it in this climate is a different question. The cost of natural gas is rising much faster than that of electricity. (plus there are concerns over future supply)

http://www.energyshop.com/es/images/pricechart-0810.gif

http://www.energyshop.com/es/images/pricechart-elect-0807.gif

OK, I'm clear on what you're saying and I agree that's it's less to run a heat pump in a dual fuel app. You just don't see them all that much, at least not out here or when I was doing residential service. The vast majority of HP's I serviced used strickly electric heat as the supplemental heat. However while you're pointing out the increase in fuel charges, I'd like to see the comparable chart for hydro increases.

For me I like gas over a HP. My total gas bill a year it $1100, that's furnace, water, stove, dryer and BBQ with 4 people in the house. I will be seeing a reduction in that when our equal billing is recalculated at the end of out term. Due to the upgrades we did we're already over $200 ahead on our balance so next year we're looking at less the a $1000 total gas usage a year. Also our hydro portions has come down substanially with a new variable drive blower motor and inducer motor.

Going back to the original poster, I'd vote against a HP in their area. However, they never mentioned what their furnace is running now. If they already have an electric furnace then it might be worthwhile.

at my last home with a bare bones single stage high eff furnace,gas water heater and BBQ, i was coming in at 900$ a year 3 years in a row. Now if i had 2stage and more importantly a DC variable speed motor set my hydro would have dropped a few hundred a year as well.... In the seasons where a Air to Air heat pump excels is also when a 2 stage furnace excels or i just simply put on a sweater! :)

As mentioned in the ontario climate the A-A heat pump is not ideal. Upgrading to 2stage gas with variable speed DC is, then toss in a really cheap R22 A/C for those 2-3weeks of summer we get! :)

It's not set up properly in that case.

You should be able to switch the thermostat to emergency heat to run the furnace alone.

Also with a dual fuel kit or high end thermostat (outdoor temperature sensor required), the changover should be automatic.

A good chunk of november and march are above zero.The changeover is automatic, the problem is that it is not changing over to the furnace quickly enough (and I end up with the heatpump running for nothing until is changes over). I have not found a way to disable the heatpump from the thermostat. I thought it was a pretty neat thermostat but it might be missing some features. I have a Climatouch thermostat that also controls the humidifier that's connected to the furnace: http://www.psic.com/images/climatouch/climatouch.htm

If you want your furnace to come on sooner, in your manual on the Advanced Settings Pg. 3 there are the options to adjust your stageing differentials. Adjust your 1st. and 2nd Stage differentials to 1 degree.

As for disabling the heat pump, i believe if you run the stat. in emergency heat setting it should take the pump out of the circuit.

I was never clear on if emergency heat mode on thermostats energizes whatever's connected to the E terminal exclusively or energizes E and Aux/W2 at the same time.

If it's the former, connecting E directly to the W terminal at the furnace should bypass the pump when set to emergency heat.

oh BTW I posted an electricity price graph as well. :p

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Sylvain, your system may or may not have an outdoor temperature sensor. If it does, there should be a heatpump lockout temperature setting. (I'm not familier with that t-stat)

Wow, my brain must have glossed over that Hydro chart! Thanks for pointing that out.

The biggest issue I have with Hydro charges is the fixed fees. Looking at my bill, charges for delivery and debt repayment alone are almost 45% of my entire monthly bill. So even if I reduce my usage by 20%, I only see a marginal drop in billing. Where as on our gas bill, the fixed fee is only about 8% of our total billing, so when I can reduce my usage i'm seeing a real reduction in our billing.

As for the stat wiring, as far as I remember it, on that stat, if he takes the W2 wire off the stat and puts it to W1 and then change the stat operation to 1 stage cool and heat and tell it to run on electric heat he can disable the HP in the winter. The only question is whether the reversing valve is energized in the cooling or heating mode. Come summer when the A/C starts it might start heating instead, in which case you have to put a jumper from R to OB on the outdoor unit board or inside if it's an old Carrier triple split.

(...) Sylvain, your system may or may not have an outdoor temperature sensor. If it does, there should be a heatpump lockout temperature setting. (I'm not familiar with that t-stat)I know I don't have an outdoor temperature sensor. The installer said that the heatpump itself would control the changeover timing. And it does but it is not doing a good job at it...

If you want your furnace to come on sooner, in your manual on the Advanced Settings Pg. 3 there are the options to adjust your stageing differentials. Adjust your 1st. and 2nd Stage differentials to 1 degree.

As for disabling the heat pump, i believe if you run the stat. in emergency heat setting it should take the pump out of the circuit.I have been playing with the staging differentials already but what you are suggesting will have the heatpump run if the difference is between 1 and (less than) 2 degrees and will have the furnace run if the difference is 2 degrees (or greater). I did not find an emergency heat setting/mode. Maybe this is something they've added since I bought the thermostat... Thanks.

Is your furnace electric or gas?

If it's gas, your system should be set up so that the heatpump is completely locked out once the outdoor temperature drops below the balance point.

If the furnace is electric, you should run the heatpump well below zero, as it's still far more energy efficient than the heat strips alone. Moving warm air can feel cool if it's below body temperature though. If the heating elements are downstream of the indoor coil, it's possible to run the HP continuously and cycle the elements as required.

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There are thermostats which work on duty cycle as opposed to differential for staging to improve
comfort.

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The biggest issue I have with Hydro charges is the fixed fees. Looking at my bill, charges for delivery and debt repayment alone are almost 45% of my entire monthly bill. So even if I reduce my usage by 20%, I only see a marginal drop in billing. Where as on our gas bill, the fixed fee is only about 8% of our total billing, so when I can reduce my usage i'm seeing a real reduction in our billing

This is kind of off topic - oh well...

Fortunately most of the extra charges are based on how much is consumed.

Delivery:
Monthly Fixed Charge $13.23 per month
Distribution Charge $0.0131 per kWh
Transmission: Network $0.0049 per kWh
Transmission: Connection $0.0023 per kWh

Regulatory:
Standard Supply Service Charge $0.25 per month
Market Service $0.0062 per kWh

Debt Retirement Charge: $0.007 per kWh

Source: http://www.powerstream.ca/app/pages/RES_May12008.jsp

Come summer when the A/C starts it might start heating instead, in which case you have to put a jumper from R to OB on the outdoor unit board or inside if it's an old Carrier triple split.

Wouldn't that keep the solenoid energized continuously?

I would put a jumper between O and Y.

Wouldn't that keep the solenoid energized continuously?

I would put a jumper between O and Y.


Yes it does keep it energized, most all of the stats that I've seen working in HP mode energize the reversing valve continuously once it's in either heat or cooling mode. If the valve is energized in cooling mode, once you turn the stat to cooling you'll hear the valve energize whether it's calling for cooling or not, the same works in heating mode. Although it does use a little more power this way, it reduces wear and tear on the valve instead of activating it everytime there's a call. I believe this is why i've only ever seen two of them fail.

Thanks for the interesting read, it's always a good discussion to have.
I think the first thing that needs to be looked at is your location, when you compare Southern Ontario to Quebec, the climate is a lot different between the 2 places. A heat pump works it's best only down to 45 F (@ 7 C) then there just isn't enough heat in the outside air.
Another thing to consider is the air temperature coming out of a heat pump indoors, the plenum temperature is lower that a gas furnace, and some people just don't like it.
I use to work for a guy that would argue till he was blue in the face about heat pumps, and the coefficient of performance of the compressor, and how it's almost free heat.
I've fixed quite a few over the years, and I don't think the new ones could be compared to the ones from the 80's, plus now days, if your buying quality equipment it should come with a decent warranty, or one you can upgrade, to give you years of expense free repairs.
Sorry if none of this makes much sense, the Corona's were tasting good today :p
Oh, and I'm 3rd generation in the heating/cooling business.