MikoZango, you are approximately 0.5 mile away from me. You are closer to the lake but a little further out from the CN tower.

As far as equipment, in addition to budget (both time and cost), you also have to define how many channels you want to get.

If you want just the major Buffalo stations and CN Tower stuff, a CM4221/AD-DB8 pointed at the US and a modest preamplifier like a Winegard 269 will get you that (up to about WNYO on your TVFool). For more reliable reception of distant US stations and CHCH, you may need additional antenna(s). From ongoing personal experience getting those extra stations is exponentially harder and more expensive.

The forum sponsors are quite reachable from our location, for obtaining good OTA gear.

As for setups, we're really quite low on elevation. A J-Pole is easy to set up with one antenna and you get the easy stations. For more channels, you might have some better luck with a wall mount (standoffs to have the mast clear the eaves) to elevate the antenna and get good separation between multiple antennas. I'm sitting 30 feet up and I still get obstructions (in my case, the arena would obstruct me if I mounted it on the wall).

ChinaDog/Phybersplice,

You need a preamp but you do not need a distribution amplifier. 25 feet is nothing, I'm splitting 6 ways with each run from antenna to TV being 25'-150' of crappy RG6 (most in the 150' range). When I inserted a CM-3414 I ended up losing channels because I introduced more noise than I benefited from the unneeded strength boost. Two splitters is a 7 dBm loss, and 25' is 2-3 dBm.

What you have to realize, is that a preamp will amplify based on the whole spectrum, which means really strong signals will force it to dial back and you gain little in the end no matter how strong it is. Bigger <> better.

If the UHF is only for Buffalo, grab a 91XG. I'm getting overloaded by CFTO at Kipling south of the Gardiner. When I attach a short length of cable to Spectrum analyzer in preparation to read a connection, I can already pick up rf9!. When you attach the UHF antenna into the mix, WNLO (23.1, rf32) is going to be the dominant factor which will affect your preamp.

Hi Everyone,

I've been searching endlessly but haven't found a product that meets my criteria. I'm looking for the smallest, discrete looking outdoor antenna that will work with for VHF/UHF off CN Tower with LOS <1km aiming up.

Current setup 4228HD outdoors aimed towards WIVB and at another spot of my place a SS-3000 on the floor indoors aimed up towards the window/ceiling/cntower. The current SS-3000 is giving me issues with CTV and the heat pump turning on/off so looking to resolve that.

Suggestions?

dcorreia,

Could you provide more details please?

TV Fool / intersection
Do you have a clear unobstructed view?
Do you only care about Toronto channels?
Where will you mount the antenna?
Describe your wiring and connectors.

Not a joke. The first think you could do is stick a paperclip or safety pin in your TV's coax jack and do a scan. That would establish a baseline for reception. I'd also expose a short length of coax copper and hang it out your window and scan again. See what changes. See if you're having better luck with the non-antenna solution than you're currently getting with your 4228hd and ss3000, you might have overload. Ultimately, you could go with something as small as a 4220hd mounted outside.

I have a Channel Master 2016 that I could lend you to test out at your location. It has UHF and high-vhf. It's a low-gain antenna which is probably what you need.

My brother lives in a condo at Front & Blue Jays Way...about 200m from the CN Tower 29th floor. His reception was very good when I tested OTA at his place.

TV Fool / intersection: Queens Quay/Lower Simcoe

Do you have a clear unobstructed view? Yes

Do you only care about Toronto channels? Yes, currently using 2 HDHomeRun tuners as 1 antenna to catch both directions is not happening in my situation under any circumstance. The one aimed towards Buffalo catches multi-path fest of Toronto stations like no tomorrow when streetcars go by.

Where will you mount the antenna? Preferably on the balcony floor.

Describe your wiring and connectors. Each antenna just connecting to HDHomeRun tuners separately.

I will try a piece of copper as a test first tonight and report back.

El Gran,

I am Curious to know why you are sending one to the DVR and one the TV why both? Also i see you have 2 DVRs, which one do you like better, I ended up getting the TIVO premiere as well as it seemed the easiest setup for the others in the household to manage.

If I am splitting to 4 different TVS, would I need to use a preamp?

Tvfool (near chrisite + dupont): http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d60b547de5ebb7e
height ~ 25 feet (with the mast it might be closer to 30ft), will be putting antenna on a small mast. i/ve not been up there yet but aside from 1 tree, there should be nothing else blocking my LOS.

My goal is all the main toronto channels and the main buffalo ones. I am not going to kill myself for the WGRZ and WBBZ since those seem problematic for some, but would love to get them if i can.

I am considering the 4221Hd since it seems to be the most common mentioned in Toronto but was also suggested the 91XG by solid signal guys in the states. OR the wineguard 7698P He also suggested i may need to put a 2 way splitter just before going into the TV to tone down some of the signal from toronto?

The antenna chart I really cant figure it out, I keep looking but cant figure it all out, there are so many categories and flavours.

thanks
J

Things to remember:

SolidSignal are based out of the US, which is mostly UHF. In Canada we live with VHF-Hi and UHF (CFTO and CHCH are in VHF-Hi). You will get different advice from local shops.

A 7698 is a huge affair. Check out the boom length before purchasing, and consider the effort to erect it and keep it from falling prey to wind and heavy snow.

A 4221 (or 4228, AntennasDirect DB-8, Winegard 8800) are good at getting VHF-Hi to some extent as well as UHF, and are not as directional. So picking up signals from Buffalo in one direction and Toronto in another is easier with one antenna. I can't see anybody who is not interested in fringe stations not getting everything they want with only one antenna (like a 4221/4228/DB-8). A 91XG will be directional (generally pointed at Buffalo to get Buffalo only), and you cannot get VHF-Hi (pointing a 91XG at the CN Tower is a bad idea, and pointing a 91XG at Hamilton at CHCH is silly since it is trying to get a VHF station on a UHF-only antenna)

Finally, if you need to attenuate the signal, which is what is implied by putting a 2 way splitter in between, you need to try out a setup before sticking in an attenuator. Proper attenuators are not that expensive, nor are splitters, try it before buying it unnecessarily.

Both Canada and the USA have a fair number of VHF channels. I wouldn't generalize that the US has proportionately more UHF than Canada. Torontonians are lucky that Buffalo only has WBBZ on VHF, but Rochester has a whack of VHF channels.

As far as I know, only the Channel Master 4228hd is said to have a measurable amount of gain on high-vhf (amongst the brand-name 8-bay bowtie antennas).

You don't have to look far down in this thread to find posts by me raving about my Winegard hd7697p. It is smaller than the 7698. I suspect my 7697 is very similar in size to a 91xg. If your mind is open to a 91xg uhf antenna, then why not be open to a similar sized (and proven - and HWP-approved) 7697 combo vhf-high+UHF antenna?

I know with my antenna the beam width is very forgiving on the main channels you care about. The aim can be quite a bit off or focused on a channel you care about (WGRZ, WPXJ) and you'll still get all your main channels.

As a bonus, in the summer, you at least can hold out hope that you'll get visits from WBBZ, CHCH, and Rochester high-vhf channels 10 & 13 (three hd channels and Bounce TV).

Your challenge is that the CN Tower and Buffalo are roughly in the same direction. Adding a pre-amp right off the bat might be premature for you. And I can understand the xg91 recommendation insofar as it is highly directional so it might allow you to really focus on Buffalo without risking getting too much signal from Toronto at the same time. Toronto channels would come in no matter what on a 91xg -- proabably even CFTO on VHF-9.

Start with an antenna. If you're missing some main channels from Buffalo add a low-gain pre-amp like the Winegard 269. Later, if you really get into OTA, then add a rotator.

If you're not looking to go crazy at the start, then go with a 4221hd or 4228hd aimed at WGRZ and see how you feel about your reception.

Anyway, you're in a good spot so whatever antenna you decide to start out with, you're bound to get some decent results.

Good luck!

HWP and Insahnity
,
both your inputs have been incredibly helpful!! Thank you. Yes I realized they were us based and might not be the best advice. Yes I realize that my location is pretty close to a straight shot for both buffalo and Toronto and do hope the translates to an easy setup and good results.

in your opinion though for my location (and the price really is not an issue) of a

4221, 4228 or Winegard hd7697p which would be the best overall (in hopes that i don't have to add other antennas or do lots of tweaking and i guess in terms of How it looks as well (well we likely wont see it often but our neighbours will :))

I am all for HWP-approved hardware for sure! but wonder if that one is still too big compared to the 4228? Now would the 4228 be Overkill since I am pretty close the CN Tower, or that wouldn't matter and would give me better chance of getting some of the trickier Buffalo ones?

Thanks so much and I agree a pre amp can be added late if ever needed but from what I have read is likely not necessary.

thanks so much!

J

A pre-amp is not needed except for when you need it, and then you need it. You may find that 90% of your reception if fine without the pre-amp. But then you're watching a show on NBC and it starts having an annoying flickering that a pre-amp could eliminate completely.

I'd choose my antenna based on how you intend to mount it. If you already have a tower, then go for a 7697. If you want to use a j-pole, then you're better off with 4221hd.

If you're planning on the more modest mount, then start with a 4221hd. If you later want to upgrade antennas, 4221hds are easy to sell for close to the price you paid.

El Gran,

I am Curious to know why you are sending one to the DVR and one the TV why both? Also i see you have 2 DVRs, which one do you like better, I ended up getting the TIVO premiere as well as it seemed the easiest setup for the others in the household to manage.

A couple reasons:


generally the tuners in the tv are better than both DVRs (handy when a station is near the locking threshold)
I can record 2 shows and watch something else realtime


As for which one do you like better, if I had to pick one it would be the TiVo (mainly due to more complete guide data, name-based recording, and ability to move recordings to an external drive) but both have pros and cons. I made a post given the pros and cons to each - I think it was sometime in 2010 but can't remember which thread :rolleyes: If you can't find it using "search", I'll see if I can find it.

I am Curious to know why you are sending one (antenna feed) to the DVR and one the TV why both?

I do the same thing with my setup, for several reasons: There are often times when both tuners in the DVR are recording shows simultaneously, and I'd like to watch a third program. And my TV has picture in picture, which is handy to watch one program and keep something else on, such as a baseball/hockey game. And I prefer to use my TV's tuner for DX'ing during tropo events.

If you are willing to put up a Winegard hd7697p, then heck yeah. It will probably work wonders pulling in signals, HWP can help.

A 4221 is the smaller cousin to the 4228. The price difference is about double but the effort is about the same in terms of installation. If you are going to put up a 4228, some people (including site sponsors) recommend the DB-8 over the 4228 (both are 8 bay bowtie antennas, different manufacturer). The Antenna selector PDF chart also recommends the DB-8 over the 4228.

A 4221 isn't a bad pick, especially if since you are really close to the CN tower. If you lived at BlueJay way as mentioned earlier, a 4228 would kill things making 4221 a must, but you should be far enough away that you will likely benefit from the 4228.

I do the same thing with my setup, for several reasons: There are often times when both tuners in the DVR are recording shows simultaneously, and I'd like to watch a third program. And my TV has picture in picture, which is handy to watch one program and keep something else on, such as a baseball/hockey game. And I prefer to use my TV's tuner for DX'ing during tropo events.

So far, sporting my newish LED TV, my CM7000PAL attached to an old tube TV (for recording sitcoms to watch while cooking/ironing/etc), and a HDHomerun. If I was determined, I coul record 3 shows and watch a 4th (once I get my HDHomerun to work with my #@!$ ancient PC). The HDHomerun is REALLY useful for roof work, especially if you have an Android phone.

You don't have to look far down in this thread to find posts by me raving about my Winegard hd7697p.
It is smaller than the 7698. I suspect my 7697 is very similar in size to a 91xg.


The 91XG is 93 inches, the 7697P is 131 inches - about 3 feet longer...

The YA17-13 is 99 inches. I think using the 7697P or a 91XG/YA17-13 combo is a toss up; one takes up more vertical space, the other horizontal.

Although it would be interesting to do a real life comparison...

[QUOTE=goforit;1338532]The 91XG is 93 inches, the 7697P is 131 inches - about 3 feet longer...QUOTE]

Three feet longer really only means 1 1/2 feet longer on each side of the mast. :)

.

Here are my givens:
TV fool: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...60b500fc3537c7


A chimney mount mast that will require a roofer to erect. For this reason, I would like to avoid a second trip to add a pre-amp or to adjust or change antennas.
The VHF antenna will be the y5 7-13 (already bought and shipped from the US) that I am sure will provide solid CHCH reception.

Here are my choices:

A separate VHF antenna leaves me free to pick the best UHF only antenna available for stable Buffalo signals (Ion and WBBZ are not priorities)
I will most likely be choosing a DB8 for the job although a CM4228 is a contender. The boom length and the higher wind load of the 91XG make it impratical in this case. Any other suggestions?

Based on my reading of this thread, a pre-amp is a good idea to ensure stable signals especially from WRGZ NBC. I will also need one that can combine the two antennas.

So which pre-amp? the CM7777 or the CM7778 ( to avoid overamplification of Toronto signals) or .....some other suggestions?

Thanks for your incredible support and your vast knowledge:p

Chinadog,

The TV Fool link didn't work for me.

The TV Fool will tell the tale regarding pre-amp recommendation. Definitely not a 7777. Either Winegard 269 or Channel Master 7778.

I'd go for the DB8 if it were me. The DB8 seems to be very strong and since you have the VHF antenna already, there is no need for the marginal vhf gain that the 4228hd offers.

And the DB8 would probably be the best choice for the long shot of getting occasional ION reception as a bonus.

Good luck!

If you don't want to risk overload, and don't want to pay someone to go up the roof twice, then maybe err on the side of caution and go with the Winegard pre-amp. 7778 probably would work, though. There are many in Etobicoke using 7778s with success.

thanks to everyone for their help. I will have to mull over the DB8 vs the wineguard now and think about it. I will for sure be putting it on a mast that will be mounted on the side of my peaked roof and probably get a 10 ft mast (gives me room for stability i wont use the full 10ft). so if that impacts the decision any then i would love to hear about that.

on another note, I read that for lightning you need to ground these things....

if I run it to a rod going into the ground, is there a particular distance that rod needs to be from the house to be safe? I also read you could hook it to a water pipe instead, but is that really safe?

not sure if there is a forum more specific for this but I could not find it on a quick search.

Thanks!!!

It does have to be grounded. A water pipe is a major compromise. To do it right you need to get a 4 ft copper coated ground rod. Maybe four or more inches from your house is enough. Ground rods are not expensive.

Look around your house. You might already have a ground rod there somewhere from years past.

There is a thread for proper grounding, I think.