Ideal!

You are lucky to have the nearby stations right at the 90 degree nadir of reception. If you have nothing in your line of sight, the Buffalo stations will be excellent. Aim that way.

For what my loose impressions are worth, whatever your final result, it won't have an antenna pre-amp. So proceed with the roof installation (using the lower loss RG6 cable) and see what you got.

You might consider a separate FM antenna and lead-in on the same mast.

Thanks for your advice.
Yes given the report I'm surprised I was not able to get more out of Buffalo.
I am going to try and run another test with the antenna pointing directly at Buffalo. When I tested it last time, it was a bit off as I was basically just pointing it southwards but oriented to the Toronto street grid, so I realize now that actually it was pointed more at St. Catharine's.

I'm not sure about line of sight obstructions. I can't see the lake or anything, and I believe I have a bit of a hill in front of the house. However, I seem to remember reading something about if you can maintain a 30 degree LOS above the obstruction then it isn't a problem (and I am certainly able to do this), but I don't know, maybe the grade is the the issue here.

I will definitely report back when I am able, but things are somewhat delayed because I'm doing the install/testing using the 4th floor deck which is my landlord's and they've not been around to let me in.

Edit: Looking at google maps, I notice there are a couple of large high-rises in the LOS path, one is about 1km to the south. I suppose this would make a difference, wouldn't it?

It's a long weekend and I had a chance to experiment today.

I have a spare Channel Master 4221hd antenna and decided to try it out in my attic. I already have my usual setup on the outside on the roof screwed into the shingles that works great.

Today's experiment was a single Channel Master 4221hd with the plastic reflector caps removed. I had to remove them because the antenna does not fit through the attic entrance hole. I had to bend the reflectors and force it through the hole. Once in the attic, I un-bent the reflectors, but left the reflectors beding backwards a tad. Same thing with the elements. The idea was to widen the beamwidth. I don't really know if that was what I'm supposed to do to widen the beamwidth, but it seemed logical.

I used my spare Channel Master 7778 pre-amp and ran RG6 down to the basement and left a ton of slack before putting on an end. Probably about fifty-to-sixty feet total of RG6 after the pre-amp, and then I joined it to one of my TVs.

Results, through shingles, about 30 feet up, in the attic. Improved reception on CHCH and CTS, everything from Toronto and Buffalo with good signal strength including rf26 TCT. rf23 ION was coming in but there was pixellation. It was not good enough to be acceptable on ION but it was trying to come in.

I'm going to leave that antenna up in the attic as a gift to the future owners of my house if I ever sell it. On a future weekend, I'll run the RG6 properly down to the basement and I'm going to keep my eyes out for another antenna to install up there to focus on ION -- something that will fit through the attic access.

If you live in East York and all you care about are the main broadcast networks, then a simple attic installation with a pre-amp might be something you're more-than-happy with.

I suggest to East Yorkers to stick with the single 4221hd with pre-amp for now and adjust in August if necessary.
I'm looking into getting (probably) someone to do an install for me. (aside: mostly because I'm not comfortable drilling into my flat roof or making the call to install on the slanted (but shingled) roof.)

Anyways, I'm a little concerned with the fact that CHCH and CFTO are switching to VHF-HI sometime soon. Am I correct in thinking that with only a CM4228 or CM4221, I'm out of luck once they switch?

I'm in the same boat as you, HWP - I'd really rather not hire an installer twice.

Hoserhead, welcome to the forum and to OTA.

Tip for everyone: No drilling into a flat roof - ever. For a flat roof, you can use something called a "non-penetrating mount." Some come with a mast, others you can attach a satellite j-pole mount and add a mast for your antenna. Easy peasy - no leaky. This thread's sponsor sells them.

Probably from East York, we don't have to worry too much about CFTO on 9 and probably not even CHCH on 11 -- even with the "wrong" antenna. Those signals will be pretty strong. Keep in mind, too, that with a bit of effort (ie the right antenna and maybe a rotor) we might have a chance at /A\ Channel from Barrie on channel 10 after is fires up on Aug 31, 2011.

Many people in Toronto with 25+ channels coming from one small, attractive antenna fixed facing one direction (facing Buffalo) will likely decide it's far too complicated to try and bother getting /A\ Channel Barrie in the opposite direction (north). For one extra channel, it might not be worth it for normal people. I'm more of a hobbyist at this point, so I'm going to give it a good try.

If your installation is particularly high and/or dangerous then you might decide to "do it right" and put up both a UHF and a high-VHF antenna such as a Channel Master 4221hd (UHF) and maybe an Antennas Direct C5 (high VHF).

If you're doing your own installation and you're willing/able to tinker with it later if needed, then just go with a 4221hd (four bay UHF) and see if it ends up working for CFTO and CHCH after August 31, 2011 when those channels move to VHF 9 and 11 respectively. Those channels will probably still work and you'll avoid having to have two antennas.

Tip for everyone: No drilling into a flat roof - ever. For a flat roof, you can use something called a "non-penetrating mount."HoserHead, see the following thread for info on those: OTA Mounts, Towers, Rigging Hardware (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=29559)

Even if you hire someone to do the install it is important that you understand the options and requirements.

I had a DB8 antenna installed for me on Easter Sunday. He did the chimney mount, ran a cable along the side of my house and in to the basement drilled through a window casing and also ran a grounding wire to the same place as the Roger's outside cable box.

I still have Roger's cable, so I didn't leave the coaxial hooked to the antenna for too long, but I got 25 digital channels when connected to the antenna (all the major Buffalo and CN Tower channels).

OK, good! I have seen folks refer to non-penetrating mounts as a "last resort," and I've got a sloped, shingled roof right beside the flat roof, so I might end up just doing that (or getting my installer to do that) instead.

HWP, I've seen you mention that picking up CHCH is tricky/intermittent for you right now; has that changed?

Hoser,

I'm asking my single 4221hd to do a lot without a pre-amp. My outdoor rooftop antenna (photo in my profile) is on the peak of my roof. There is a small VHF antenna cm2016 connected too in hopes of it helping in the future for rf7 WNGS, rf10 CKVR, rf11 CHCH, and rf9 CFTO. So far it doesn't do much.

Anyway, the 4221hd is pointed at WGRZ. CHCH is ususally there but it does come and go for me.

I have installed OTA for two of my neighbours. With them we went with a 4221hd pointed a tad east of WGRZ and a channel master 7778 pre-amp at roof level. Both of them got solid reception on CHCH and ION (and all stations in between -- including TCT 26) all winter.

As long as their single 4221hd + 7778 keeps working for them on CHCH after transition, I would say that for East York (at least north of Danforth) the quality brand-name four bay (Winegard, Antennas Direct, Channel Master) + quality pre-amp (CM7778 or Winegard) is probably going to be the winning strategy. Especially for people without any obstructions such as trees or buildings. None of us have that problem.

Today, forum member and installer for the forum sponsor Tom.F.1 came and installed my brand new 4221 (unamplified for now). I was really, really impressed - if you're on the fence about who to book with, call up the forum sponsor and book Tom!

I'm quite excited by the results I've gotten with it connected to my Bell 9242; initially I had 29 channels, many at 100% lock!

Channels I'm getting (omitting subchannels)
2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 17, 23, 25, 26, 29, 36, 41, 44, 49, 51, 57, 64 Edit: and 66 - forgot it somehow!

The only iffy channel I have is ION (51), which has tended to come in at ~60%. (Seems the 9242's cutoff is 60%?) City (57) can have drop-outs, though its strength can hover around 70%; Omni (64) is similar.

My plan is to get a TiVo Premiere, which apparently doesn't have a great ATSC tuner; if it gives me trouble with any of my channels, I'll throw in a distribution amp and see what happens. (Tom seemed pretty confident that I wouldn't need a preamp.)

Hoser,

Congrats on going OTA!

This morning I had brunch at my friend's house today at Coxwell and Mortimer -- the guy whose house I installed OTA last fall. First thing I did when I got there was scan channels. With his 4221hd + channel master 7778 pre-amp split four ways with an unaplifiied channel master splitter, he gets rock solid performance of 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 17, 19, 23, 25, 26, 29, 36, 41, 44, 49, 51, 57, 64, and 66 -- including all subchannels. His antenna is strapped to the chimney on a two story flat-roofed house with a pretty-much unobstructed view south.

Tom was right to start without amplfication. He doesn't want to up-sell you something a) you might not need, and b) might cause more problems than it avoids. My installer also wanted to avoid using an amplifier.

But my own experience in our own neighbourhood in the one year that I have been an OTA enthusiast has taught me that one CAN get away with a pre-amp where we are (East York - Danforth to O'Connor area). Indeed, one needs a pre-amp to use a single four-bay antenna to get a lock on the full range of available channels. If you point your antenna at Buffalo, your antenna is 70 degrees away from the Toronto and Hamilton stations. It appears to be enough to get away with use of a pre-amp without introducing overload problems.

Driving around our neighbourhood, I have seen a number of installations consisting of 8bay antennas toward Buffalo/Batavia and a four-bay antenna toward Toronto -- all unamplified. This may work, too. But there are many out there who would probably prefer just having the one small antenna and a pre-amp taking up space on their roof for aethetic reasons.

My two friends with pre-amps that I installed enjoyed all of the marginal stations all winter long -- including City, CTS, TCT, ION, and CHCH. 4221hd and 7778.

I can't wait to get my pre-amp out of the basement and onto my roof. As soon as I can get some good weather.

I'm actually south of Danforth, near the train tracks.

I think I'm going to stick unamplified until I get a little more experience with the signal levels, and especially until I switch to TiVo; when I do go amplified, I'll likely go with a CM3410, because all I'll need to do is insert the amp right where the cable enters the house, rather than climbing on the roof. ('Course I'll need to get a cable stripper and compression tool ;) - maybe I can get the Rogers tech to do it for me when I switch to Teksavvy later this month!)

Also, I somehow forgot channel 66 in my original results line-up - I've edited my post to add it.

I'm actually south of Danforth, near the train tracks.

I think I'm going to stick unamplified until I get a little more experience with the signal levels, and especially until I switch to TiVo; when I do go amplified, I'll likely go with a CM3410, because all I'll need to do is insert the amp right where the cable enters the house, rather than climbing on the roof. ('Course I'll need to get a cable stripper and compression tool ;) - maybe I can get the Rogers tech to do it for me when I switch to Teksavvy later this month!)

Also, I somehow forgot channel 66 in my original results line-up - I've edited my post to add it.
+1

But you might consider a distro amp with more outputs. That's better than having passive splitters downstream for a few reasons, assuming your home geometry is OK in a star pattern. Where I had a lot of cables running along a wall, I bought the plastic loom stuff - looks like accordion with a slit the length for tucking in the cables.

No need for fancy crimpers if it is all indoors.

I have an old tower/antenna/cable from tower/tv.
I use a digital converter to get digital stations.
buffalo stations are pretty well useless.
The antenna may not be facing in optimum direction for buffalo, but I believe cannot be turned.
What steps should I try to improve reception? Cheapest/easiest first.

- new antenna/cable? what kind of antenna/cable?

thanks for your help.

Start with TVfool.

The good news and the bad is that you prolly have downtown and Buffalo on the same alignment. Good also that downtown is not terribly close so a hot set-up won't blast your tuner from strong local stations.

I lot of us covet the thought of towers. Line-of-sight good?

Aim for a large antenna and no antenna-preamp, rather than the opposite.

Line of site should be good. No trees, appt buildings.

TV FOOL: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d574707d933b837

What do you mean by a "large antenna" ? Can you suggest models #'s?

Thanks.

Have you read the OTA FAQ and downloaded the Antenna Chart? :)

Good idea. Thanks.

Gould, first make sure that the antenna you have up on your tower is a UHF antenna. It may be an old VHF only antenna only good for the low channels and this is typical of a lot antennas I see in older Scarborough areas. These were put up before there were any UHF channels available back in the 50's or 60's.
Check this site for photos of antennas to determine what you actually have. If you need to put up a new antenna, a CM4221HD should work well for you especially since you have a tower.

I receive 57 I think it is and 17 on occasion.
Does that mean I already have a UHF antenna?

Thanks.