MisterP,

Powered electronic antennas like the Turk/Squareshooter are junk in most situations. Being so close to the CN tower would suggest not to use any of those types of over-amped over-rated junk antennas.

Aiming: Your antenna should be aimed south [180°] to avoid direction toward those strong CN tower signals.

First question: Did the red-light on the preamp fade and go off when it was powered up? This would indicate that there is a short in the cabling somewhere between the balun and the preamp, or a short in the downlead between the mast-preamp and the powered connection box[that splitter type connection box]. It is also possible to have a damaged or shorted balun on the antenna.

Second question: Did the preamp's power light stay on? If the power supply light stays on, then you probably have a bad shield connection somewhere in the downlead cabling [open circuit] and there is no power getting up the downlead cabling to power up the mast-preamp.

If the cabling, antenna, etc are OK, then using the preamp may be simply overloading the tuner, then maybe a drop-amp/booster at the end of the downlead may help.

Looking at your tvfool report,... you should be at least getting everything in the green area of that list.
__________________________

If all else fails, then consider just building a simple Stealth Hawk and use new RG6 cabling from the antenna to a booster/drop-amp.

The power light on the powered connection box did stay on when the cable was plugged in. It's probably a short or a bad connection somewhere.

With the antenna --> new RG6 --> LG TV set, I do get almost everything in green on the TV Fool report.
With the antenna --> new RG6 --> CM7000PAL, I drop down to 5/6 channels.

So the assumption was that some signals needed a boost to get through the splitter on the DVR.

My goal is to get the greens and yellows from the TV Fool report - which should be possible since with a mast mounted antenna I should theoretically be getting the greens, yellows and pinks.

Pointing the antenna 180º south would point it away from the Buffalo/Grand Island axis. Since those are the stations I'm trying to bring in, that seems counter intuitive. But I will suggest it when the installers come back.

MisterP,

My vote is overload -- maybe TV Ontario. Your pre-amp is a UHF-only pre-amp, right? You're one kilometer from the CN Tower and your installer ordered a very powerful pre-amp (Winegard 4800). Maybe the Winegard HDP 269 might have been more appropriate.

OTACanuck suggests turning the antenna away from the CN Tower more directly south. I agree. You've got to try to get less signal from Toronto hitting your antenna. If you have a big building to the north of you, just for fun, I would try pointing your antenna north to catch the weaker reflections! You never know!

You might need a pre-amp to lock on to some US stations but I doubt you need the gain that yours provides.

Anybody can make a mistake, but a professional antenna installer ought to be able to intall connector ends properly, I would think. And they could also have a signal tester to make sure your wires are live and stong. I respect that they are still trying to achieve the expected results for you, but I am starting to question why it's taking so many tries to get this right. I also wonder about the choice of a 4800 pre-amp.

I'm just a hobbyist so who knows. We'll see. Keep us posted!!!

Don't give up yet. We'll figure this out.

MisterP,

Just throwing another idea your way if your up to doing an antenna change. Possibly, in your location, the 4221 has too much beamwidth to avoid those strong overpowering CN Tower signals. Maybe a more directional narrower beamwidth antenna with more distance range such as a 91XG would do the trick aimed at little bit south of Buffalo target. The TO stations would still get picked up from the back/side of the antenna.

Another thought. You said your LG is OK? So, simply use a drop-amp to boost only the signal going into the PVR.

MisterP,

Any update on your OTA? Did your installer figure it out?

No one has posted a detailed reception results lately.

Here is what you can shoot for if installing a quality OTA set-up at roof-level, outdoors, at your home in Toronto's east end. This is what I get reliably:

2.1 NBC WGRZ
2.2 Universal Sports Network
2.3 Retro TV
4.1 CBS WIVB
5.1 CBC
7.1 ABC WKBW
9.1 CTV
11.1 CHCH
17.1 PBS WNED HD
17.2 PBS WNED SD
17.3 PBS Think Bright
19.0 TV Ontario (analog until late-August 2011)
23.1 The CW WNLO
25.1 Radio-Canada
26.1 TCT SD
26.2 TCT HD
26.3 TCT Kids
29.1 Fox WUTV
29.2 The Country Network
36.1 CTS
41.1 Global
44.1 Omni 2
49.1 My TV Buffalo WNYO
49.2 The Cool TV
51.1 ION
51.2 qubo
51.3 ION Life
57.1 CityTV
64.1 Omni 1
66.1 SunTV

That is 30 channels, of which 29 are digital High Definition (19) and digital Standard Definition (10). TVOntario will be the 20th HD channel come August 2011.

The "prescription" that I have had the most success with after having helped neighbours and friends with OTA is:

Channel Master 4221hd unmodified
Channel Master 7778 mounted on mast outdoors.
Direct your antenna at or just east of WGRZ.
Quality RG6 cable
Quality splitters
Quality cable connectors (I use Thomas & Betts)
Ground your antenna to protect your OTA setup and your electronic equipment.

If you're doing it yourself, you should educate yourself fully here on Digital Home, ask for help before the set-up from members here, and don't cheap-out on no-name stuff. If things don't work the way we all hope, the first thing we'll all suspect will be substandard components in your set-up.

Enjoy a lifetime of free digital TV!

NOTE: Not everyone can expect to get all of the above channels. The good news is that the channels you're most likely to experience difficulty receiving are coincidentally the channels many people tend to care the least about: 26.x, 51.x, 36.1. Including sub-channels you can lose a good handful of channels but 26 and 36 are religious channels, and 51.x are good to get but they broadcast little original programming. You have a very good chance of receiving all major Canadian and American broadcasting networks.

MisterP,

Any update on your OTA? Did your installer figure it out?
Hi HWP. Thanks for asking.

I got so frustrated with the whole process that I just needed a break from it for a few days. I've had it with my installers. I don't believe they really know what they're doing - they just seem to randomly throw different things at the problem (each thing costing a bit more money, of course). Nothing has really worked to my satisfaction.

The situation has improved from our initial attempts though. Now, on both the LG TV tuner and the CM7000PAL, I reliably receive:

5.1 CBC
9.1 CTV
11.1 CHCH
23.1 The CW WNLO
25.1 Radio-Canada
36.1 CTS
41.1 Global
44.1 Omni 2
57.1 CityTV
64.1 Omni 1
66.1 SunTV

Sometimes, but with unacceptable reception (tiling, audio dropouts) I can receive:

4.1 CBS WIVB
7.1 ABC WKBW
17.1 PBS WNED HD
17.2 PBS WNED SD
17.3 PBS Think Bright

I've still never seen NBC or FOX with either the LG tuner or the CM DVR.

As mentioned before, the signal off the CM 4221HD was useless. Maybe it was a dead unit, who knows? The addition of a mast mounted amplifier (in my case the Winegard 4800) caused overload - although the installers wouldn't accept that as a possibility. Instead they scratched their heads and didn't know what the problem could be. They came back with a Square Shooter again, mounted it on the mast and plugged it in. Finally, I was reliably tuning more than 10 channels on both devices, so it did seem like the best solution (although without US networks, it's still not worth all the money I've spent).

Frankly, I just wanted rid of them. I don't think they were up to the task.

At some point, I would like to try ota_canuck's idea of the more directional 91XG antenna, perhaps combined with a more appropriate amplifier (with a FM trap, and not so much gain). For now I'm going to live with what I have, but perhaps as the weather gets better, I will tinker some more.

MisterP,

I've discussed OTA with your installer before. I think you were served to the best of his ability, but I don't have a high opinion of his ability for out-of-the-ordinary installations. I am just a hobbyist and he is a "professional" so my natural inclination was to defer to his experience. To be honest, the impression I got from him was that he might be blinded by his confidence-level in his usual go-to solutions. He laughed-off the possibility of overload even though you live in the shadow of the CN Tower less than two kilometers away and used perhaps the strongest pre-amp there is. I'll note that both you and I have been careful not to mention who your installer is.

You have been given very useful advice by experienced OTAers here in this thread. In my mind, the free advice available here in these threads is as good as, and in some cases, better than the advice of a professional installer depending on the installer you hire. Anyone contemplating hiring an installer should take the installer's set-up advice seriously, but still do your research here and ask questions of the members here. With a little bit of information from this thread, you'll be able to develop a gut instinct as to the competence level of your installer.

Again, MisterP, don't give up yet. There is still a lot of troubleshooting left to be done and other ideas to consider before you run-out of options. Where do you stand now? What is your current OTA set-up? Which antenna/pre-amp did you end-up keeping?

Hi everyone,

This is what I can get with a hacked 4221hd pointing South, slightly West (direction just west of Niagara Falls in order to get 11.1 from Hamilton), no pre-amp, RG6 roof mounted (BUT on the old Bell Sat pole so it is tilted upwards a bit and only a few feet above the roof)

2.1 NBC WGRZ
2.2 Universal Sports Network
2.3 Retro TV
4.1 CBS WIVB
5.1 CBC
7.1 ABC WKBW
9.1 CTV
11.1 CHCH
17.1 PBS WNED HD
17.2 PBS WNED SD
17.3 PBS Think Bright
19.0 TV Ontario (not great watchable at times)
23.1 The CW WNLO
25.1 Radio-Canada
26.1 TCT SD (religious channel always asking for money)
26.2 TCT HD ""
26.3 TCT Kids
29.1 Fox WUTV
29.2 The Country Network
36.1 CTS (not great but I would not watch it anyways)
41.1 Global
44.1 Omni 2
49.1 My TV Buffalo WNYO
49.2 The Cool TV
51.1 ION (off and on)
51.2 qubo (off and on)
51.3 ION Life (off and on)
57.1 CityTV
64.1 Omni 1
66.1 SunTV


Last summer on one day I got a bunch of Rochester channels, I guess a good tropo day. It did lead me to the question that If I had a rotor or second antenna (which I hear is difficult to get right) do any of you think that I would be able to get Rochester reliably (PBS world is my main interest).

My setup was a bit of a rush job right before winter. My main question is, if I raise the antenna higher (i.e. I read that you should have at least a meter above the roof), and remove the upwards tilt will this further improve my reception.

Of course the only way to find out is to try :), but I wanted to know if it is worth the effort.


I am interested in hearing from anyone in my area about your reception results. Also I have seen a couple of DIY Hooverman (forgive me if I did not get the name exactly right) antennas in my area and would love to know what they are getting.



Thanks to everyone on this site!! Every Month I think of the $100 or so that used to go to Bell Canada for their lousy choice and service!!!!

Obe67,

Congrats on the excellent results! And pointing west, no less! I and my neighbours who I've helped all point south and a touch east.

Given your results of WPXJ ION 51.1,2,3 (rf23) - "comes and goes", I don't think you could expect a reliable signal from Rochester. Batavia is only about half way to the Rochester towers. That's a lot of miles from Rochester and much of it is over land - not the lake. Enjoy it when you get it, but I woudn't go to much effort or expense to get Rochester.

Enjoy your OTA!

Thanks :)

In fact I am pointing South.. but just a bit West :)

My reception to be honest was luck of a fluke as I did not know much at all about OTA when I first set this up (just shows what hatred of Bell will do to a person, get them to climb their roof :) )

I later read about my antenna being made in China and as always having some manufacturing deficiencies so I did the the recommended hacks, which gave me a nice increase in reception.

When I started this whole thing out I first pointed my antenna on my back porch direct towards Rochester and got NBC, ABC, PBS at least, could have been a fluke.

cheers

In my mind, the free advice available here in these threads is as good as, and in some cases, better than the advice of a professional installer depending on the installer you hire. Anyone contemplating hiring an installer should take the installer's set-up advice seriously, but still do your research here and ask questions of the members here. With a little bit of information from this thread, you'll be able to develop a gut instinct as to the competence level of your installer.
Completely agree with this. When three different people in this forum are telling you something and your installer doesn't agree, you may want to reconsider your choice of installer. :rolleyes:

What is your current OTA set-up? Which antenna/pre-amp did you end-up keeping?
Antenna: Winegard SS-2000 "Square Shooter" mounted on an existing OTA antenna tower, approximately 10 feet off my roof (total height about 30').
Pre-amp: integrated 12 dB (which, I think, makes it a HDP-269 ?)
Cabling: all new RG6 (approximately 70' from the antenna to the PVR)

Well, on the positive side, it appears the 4221hd was not the best antenna choice for you anyway and he took that back, and he took back is pre-amp that he ordered for you. You're left with a decent brand-name set-up - albeit not the ideal set-up for your location.

I really wonder about whether these Square Shooter-type antennas are worth anything near the price they charge for them. In my opinion, they are more aesthetically pleasing than functional - which is important to some people and perfectly adequate if they are in the right location.

Once we all figure out what your ideal setup is, maybe you can contact him once more and exchange that Square Shooter with whatever you determine you really need (ie a very directional antenna pointed away from Toronto). If not, that Square Shooter might be perfect for someone living high up in a condo tower on the lakeshore or high up in a condo tower anywhere in Toronto.

In the meantime, try to enjoy what you do have.

In my mind, the free advice available here in these threads is as good as, and in some cases, better than the advice of a professional installer depending on the installer you hire.

Agreed with HWP. I spoke with an installer a few months ago. I asked him about VHF reception and he asked why? Apparently he had no idea about CFTO and CHCH reverting in August.

If you're comfortable with it I hope one or all of you will post in the following thread to give that installer's company name and a brief review of the disagreements for the benefit of all our members:

OTA: Ontario Parts, Sales, Service, Installers (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=23984)

No OTA installer should ever be patronizing an avid OTA Forum member! Bad thing to do... :D

El gran chico,

That might have been MisterP's installer....I had the same convo with him, too.

Hi Folks,


Just saw in the post above that CFTO and Hamilton 11.1 will move back to VHF.
Does this mean that I would lose them since I have the above mentioned antenna?

Sorry for the ignorance, but I believe that my antenna is only UHF.

If that is the case would I need to add another antenna for the VHF.

This might be in another thread already.

Thanks

obe67: Both channels currently broadcast in analog on their respective VHF assignments. How do the stations look when you tune to them now?

Most people in our neighbourhood (East York) are employing a single-antenna solution for OTA at this point. We can focus on Buffalo and pull in Toronto/Hamilton off the side. CHCH rf18 is a bit weak but the pre-amp helps.

I have some concern about CHCH reception once it moves back to rf11 post-transition. My analog CHCH is watchable but with quite a bit of "snow." No worries about CFTO moving to rf9. That channel is very strong on analog.

I often tout the single 4221hd + CM 7778 solution for our neighbourhood. It really works well. I have helped some neighbours install this and they get great results.

I did not do my own installation -- I was new to OTA and my home was my first experience with it -- I hired an installer. He suggested an unamplified single 4221hd. I, having read-up a great deal about OTA here on Digital Home, was already anticipating the Aug 2011 transition of CFTO HD to rf9, CHCH HD to rf11, CKVR HD to rf 10, and WNGS to rf7 (wishful thinking). I insisted to my installer that we put on a small high VHF antenna - Channel Master 2016 - because I didn't want to hire an installer twice. He disagreed with me but went along with it and my system works well (perhaps in spite of my set-up). My antennas are combined witha UVSJ.

I have since found a safe way on to my roof. My neighbours that I helped paid nothing for labour anyway. So if we have to tinker with the set-up come August - so be it.

I suggest to East Yorkers to stick with the single 4221hd with pre-amp for now and adjust in August if necessary.

I'll be the first to report if I end up pulling in CKVR Barrie in HD once they come online. If that works, then people will have to decide if they want to make the necessary changes just to pull-in that one extra channel on VHF from the total opposite direction.

At any rate, I hope my VHF antenna ends up helping for CHCH.

Keep in mind also, that my CHCH analog 11 is a bit poor, but I don't have a pre-amp on my roof at this time. I've got a Kitztech in the basement at the splitters. And the antenna is pointed about 90 degrees away from CHCH.

By the way, in the coming weeks I plan to replace my UVSJ at roof level with my Channel Master 7778 and will remove my Kitztech at ground level. Since my neighbours don't seem to be having any overload problems, I'm hoping that my setup will be able to handle it. The hope is that I'll see an improvement on both CHCH and WPXJ (ION), CITS, and TCT 26. I already get these pretty well, but my neighbours get 99% reliability on everything. Once the transition happens, I will be able to compare my reception with my neighbours using the single antenna solution. Can't wait for August!

I will have to check the analog signals on 9 and 11 when I get home. On another note 9.1 is gone but CFTO is now on 40.1, I saw in another part of the forum that this is something to do with your tuner plus CFTO psip not working properly.

At present I am not using a pre-amp as my cable goes from the roof right down to 1 TV. I posted my results above, would it make sense to invest in a pre-amp, or perhaps a rotor would be better. As I said I have seen a lot more OTA antennas popping up in East York and am interested in their results.

One not far from me was a CM 4228 pointed at the CN Tower, which I thought was super over kill plus being more directional would hurt the edge reception.
Sure enough a few months later they had changed to what looks like 2 CM 4221 with one pointing at the CN tower the other somewhat towards Buffalo (I am no expert but that does not seem right either as would not their be multipath issues)

Anyways thanks for all your help, this reminds me of when I first turned to Linux and from the great people on Forums was able to learn the system inside out years ago!!!