i've now asked him to focus on pulling in buffalo, and we'll see what happens with toronto. I think this is the right strategy. In my personal opinion all that you really need is Buffalo plus the CBC - unless you care about watching local news from a channel other than CBC. CTV, Global, etc have very little worth watching that isn't available from the US stations.

The one exception to this would be the Olympics as long as they are still on CTV (which London 2012 will be) - but I guess everyone has their own priorities.

p.s. - I set up an antenna for my HTPC in my attic a few years ago. It only gets CBC + all Buffalo (including ion) and I haven't bothered moving it outside and re-aiming towards the CN tower for the reasons expressed above.

Hi bmwalenius,
The only time i've had a hard time getting buffalo is when there are obstructions. I've installed a few in your area.
Over the holidays i did one near you (7 blocks north of lawrence) and got all the buffalo stations first try. I pointed slightly east of the majority of stations in order to avoid overload.
If there is a building in the way, I usually try pointing to one side or the other to see whats best.

Based on the pros who have just weighed in, I think your hope can be restored!

I speculate that a single directional antenna like the 4228hd directed slightly east of Buffalo will probably work out for you and I would hope (expect) that you'll get a lot more than just the CBC.

But even if you don't get the Canadian channels, you can get a small set of rabbit ears for each TV and use a switch whenever you want to watch Global, City, TVO, CTV, etc.

Keep us in the loop. Future readers will want to know how this situation was resolved.

Good luck!

Is there anyone here who can advise us if this type of overload problem (trying to get Buffalo when having to shoot straight through the Toronto signals) will continue to exist after the analog TV transmitters shut down (hopefully) in August 2011?

Is this a major problem when nearby and distant transmitters are in line with each other?

Is it the strong analog signals that are the major source of the problem or is it the actual difference of strong and weak signals being in-line with each other?

Once analog TV is gone, will this be much easier? I presume we will want to install an FM trap in this situation since their strong ?analog? signals will remain post-transition.

thanks tom f1, hwp and georgemx, wayne. pretty clear that success is possible in my area, just need to find right combination of variables.

i did a bit of mapping with the fcc dtv tool, and my line of sight to buffalo seems to go directly towards mt pleasant and eglinton, which is close to the edge of a large concentration of high rise condos in the yonge/eg area. it was interesting how fast the signal dropped as we were turning it. I'm probably pointing right at somebody's million dollar 5th floor balcony!!

installer coming back on wed, and we'll try to get buffalo with a higher gain 4228, starting from the extreme east/s-e, and rotate slowly south, rather than our original strategy of starting with the cn tower. thanks everyone. bryan

HWP - after studying gain charts for awhile, I ordered a CM4221HD today to try replacing my CS2. I think 2-1, 4-1, and 7-1 from Buffalo are right on the edge of reception in the winter months, so I think a higher gain antenna just might do the trick.

The 4221HD is a good 3-4 dB higher in gain in the channel 30 range where these stations lie, so it may just solve the problem. Stay tuned.

If it works, I'll be rather annoyed at spending $100 on a CS2 amid their lofty performance claims, if a simple classic 4221HD outperforms it!

After all of the talking-up I have done about the 4221hd, I really hope it works for you.

It has definitely proven an effective workhorse for me and my neighbours. In my neighbourhood of East York, we seem to have reached a critical mass of homes with outdoor UHF antennas - mostly four and eight bays. I doubt there is a street without one. Many streets have several. The word is spreading.

So I hope it works for you! Maybe it's time you show your pride and move it on to the roof! :)

Good luck!

Is there anyone here who can advise us if this type of overload problem (trying to get Buffalo when having to shoot straight through the Toronto signals) will continue to exist after the analog TV transmitters shut down (hopefully) in August 2011?

Is this a major problem when nearby and distant transmitters are in line with each other?

Is it the strong analog signals that are the major source of the problem or is it the actual difference of strong and weak signals being in-line with each other?

Once analog TV is gone, will this be much easier? I presume we will want to install an FM trap in this situation since their strong ?analog? signals will remain post-transition.

Local and distant transmitters in line are a problem. Post analog shutdown, the Canadian stations are transmitting DTV at lower levels than most of the US stations but some of the US transmitters are over 100 kilometers away. A receive site might need a high gain antenna and high gain preamplifier to get the distant station but the local transmitters will overload the high gain preamp. The greater the distance from the local transmitter to the receive site, the lower the probability of preamp overloading. If the preamp is not overloaded, the next concern is tuner desensitization caused by a higher power local station on an adjacent channel reducing the tuner gain and the ability to receive the weaker signal.

The analog shut-off will mean less transmitters will be on the air from the CN Tower and First Canadian Place which will reduce the number of carriers and amount of power available to create interference. The very high peak power from sync tips on all the analogs will be gone as well. On the other side of the coin, the power levels on the digitals will increase. Canadian channels adjacent to US stations may cause tuner desensitization problems when they increase power. Channels 40 (Sun?) and 41 (Global) may cause issues with 38 (ABC) and 39 (CBS) in some cases. Similarly, 44 (Omni) may create issues with 43 (PBS).

FM stations are located just above channel 6 and should not pass through a UHF-only preamp. CFTO will operate DTV on channel 9 from the CN Tower and CHCH Hamilton is supposed to move DTV to channel 11. A small high band VHF antenna may be required to get CHCH. The preamp needed will depend on location. CFTO will probably be received through the CHCH antenna due to reflections from buildings. There is no reason to amplify the low VHF band so a filter cutting off below 174 MHz would be a consideration. The filter will eliminate FM and reduce the level of two-way radio systems operating below channel 7.

Determining exactly what will happen would require an expensive engineering study factoring in all the transmitter powers, terrain, directional antennas, beam downtilt, path lengths and other factors. Of course lake effect will continue to affect reception so channels may be good on some days and gone on others. Unless you want to spend serious money you will probably have to wait until the transition happens to get your answer.

Who needs an expensive study when we've got all you guys sharing your knowledge and experience? Thanks! I love learning about all this.

Results: SUCCESS!

Yesterday was a bad reception day, and I started the day with neither my Toshiba 37HL66 nor my CM-7000PAL able to tune any of 2-1, 4-1, or 7-1.

I spent the whole afternoon playing with antenna positioning in my attic and swapped the CS2 for the 4221HD.

I was able to bring in all missing channels with signal strengths between 64 and 72 on the CM7000PAL. Last night and this morning, I saw signal strengths approximately equal to the best performance I saw from my previous setup/position with the CS2 during autumn.

I also managed to get CHCH coming in with the antenna pointed at Buffalo, which is an accomplishment considering the smaller beam width of the 4221HD.

I attribute half the improvement to mere positioning, but the 4221HD is definitely a tad stronger than the CS2. Overall, I'd say the CS2 and the 4221HD are very close in performance, with the 4221HD winning by a hair in gain and the CS2 winning by a hair in being less directionally sensitive.

In short: I'd recommend a CS2 for outdoor use since it's so small and pretty, but the extra gain of the 4221HD is probably useful for attic installations if you have the space since you don't have to look at it after it's installed and since it's half the price of the CS2.

I'm a happy camper.

My "wish" for 2011 has been achieved!...

Schmerpy got CBS working finally on his TV and PVR.

Congrats!

I'm glad it finally worked out.

:)

Thanks, HWP.

For those of you following along, I have a 4221HD (outdoor antenna used in an attic) and CM7778 preamp in an attic of a four storey townhouse near Yonge and Finch and receive the following:

2-1,2,3
4-1
5-1
7-1
9-1
11-1
17-1,2,3
19 (analog - TV only)
23-1
25-1
29-1,2
41-1
44-1
49-1,2
57-1
64-1
66-1

Hopefully this will now be reliable, year round, since this season is supposed to be the worst!

that's very encouraging. I'm at Yonge and Lawrence, with only 49-1 from buffalo. I'm within 1 or 2 degrees of the same line of sight to Buffalo as you are. Installer back on Wed for try #2.

What's the setup the installer put in your house?

I have to say, that's very poor performance. Channels like 23-1 are nearly as strong as Toronto stations!

After a few days of watching, my setup appears to be very solid now. I have seen nothing drop out at all!

my setup is described in my post 1416 of this thread. it looks very similar to yours i think, mine is outside however. ive also posted a couple thoughts describing the process the installer took to get this far. i agree the results are disappointing... the resolution of that disappointment explains my recent participation in this forum. I think i'm pointing directly at a series of condos in the yonge/eg area, rather than to the east of them. your location and my location are just a few degrees different to buffalo, and i'm even a few miles closer!!!

Your installer thought the CM4228 alone was overloading, and then swapped it for a 4221 + pre-amp? That doesn't make sense to me. If the first antenna without amp was overloading, I'd say the second with an amp certainly would.

The 4221 only has about 3dB less gain than a 4228, but the pre-amp will add 17-23, depending on the model.

What signal strengths are you getting on the Toronto stations?

With your location and having your antenna outdoors, your setup should smoke mine.

I've noticed that both antennas I've tried were sensitive to aim to achieve best performance. Did the installer use a signal meter to aim it properly?

thanks. The installer and the shop indicated they experience a big difference between 4228 and 4221. the specs show a 3dB difference, that is a relative doubling of gain betwen the two.

The progression the installer went through did seem to make sense to me at the time (i was a complete novice 2 weeks ago, i am a fast learning novice now). he had the 4228 pointed south, towards the CN tower, saw overload, then switched to 4221 (with no amp), which resolved the overload. the amp was brought in as the next step in an effort to pull in buffalo, and he swept east away from the tower looking for buffalo.

Ive since tried to check his alignment with a compass, and magnetic headings. I think the problem I now have is that the we're aiming into an obstruction (a cluster of high rises south of me). Simply put, we didn't sweep east far enough with any of the three setups he tried. I think he rotated it away from tower and saw toronto start to drop off, but misinterpreted why buffalo still wasn't coming in. If he'd kept rotating (we ran out of daylight by this time) we would have come out the other side of the obstruction. Other forum members, who appear to be pro-installers have had lots of success near me, so i'm confident this is completely an aiming problem.

Ive asked him to reverse his strategy for the next try. Forget Toronto, lets find Buffalo first. We'll start aiming east, and sweep south so we know that we're aiming east of those towers.

Finally, I would not call what he used a 'signal meter'. he had an external receiver that he plugged into the composite output on my plasma to get close, then he tried to fine tune the aim using the signal/quality meter in my tv. ive got a panasonic plasma, and on that the toronto signal strengths are all stable high 70 to mid 90. ion comes and goes, so as it bounces around the tv is able to make sense of it in the mid 40's (so about 50% seems to be the minimum acceptable signal)

Ion comes and goes? Ion is actually hard to get in Toronto.

I'd say forget about Toronto when fine-tuning your set-up. You can pretty much point that antenna anywhere you want and you'll get the Toronto stations. I pulled in all the Toronto stations with my 4221HD laying face down on the floor in my house.

You can use google maps to draw a line from Grand Island (Buffalo transmitters) to your house. You can then switch to satellite view and see exactly how the line approaches your home. I did this and it gives you an idea of exactly where you should be aiming - quite helpful.

Assuming the skyrises don't block your view, I'd try it without the pre-amp once you get the aim right. I need my pre-amp, but I have an attic installation, which is challenging.

thanks. we'll see how we make out tomorrow.

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/

this is the fcc site i used to check sight lines. it automates the process you describe, and you can check each tower separately. It'll draw the line to each transmitter on a satellite or map view and allow you to zoom/pan to review obstructions It allows entry of canadian reception addresses, but only includes references to US broadcast locations.

If you use TV Fool with certain browsers (Firefox comes to mind), it will provide a "show lines to transmitters" option.