WUTV = 1000KW directional to the south

Interesting information, guys. I appreciate that.

I also hear the suggestions of getting a rotor, but from my location, all of the Buffalo stations and the Toronto stations arrive in lines that are almost perfectly coincident.

I guess where I'm getting stuck on this situation is that the results just don't make sense. The only Buffalo stations broadcasting with more power are 23-1 (CW) and 29-1 (FOX). Both are rock solid at my location, 23-1 is as strong as the Canadian stations for me, and I've heard that FOX actually directs its broadcast southward. PBS (17-1) is also rock solid, and broadcasts with less power. 7-1 and 2-1 are also very reliable, with minor tiling on bad evenings, but almost never drop out. The only Buffalo station to give me serious problems is WIVB, which is always dropping out, and that's only during/since the repair <scratching head>.

Maybe its a combination of variables...meaning that their contour may not be the same anymore...but this all occurred when the weather was changing, so anyone that setup in the summer are now viewing their true "raw" capabilities in their systems. Another factor is the sensitivity of your tuner. My HVR-1250 is a very sensitive tuner card, and I know it picks up better than my Samsung TV with a new generation ATSC tuner.

Just some extra thought into what's going on.

I mentioned this once before, but I speculate that you did not have your OTA set-up for a long-enough period of time for you to really establish a "base-line" of "normal" OTA reception for your place.

EDIT: I have just checked-back. You ran into trouble with WIVB on/around October 31. Your Clearstream2 antenna was installed in your attic on/around October 8. At first without a pre-amp, then with a bad preamp, and later in the month with a good pre-amp (7778). It seems you were never quite 100% satisfied because you ended going up to your attic to fine-tune your aim (implying that there was more work to be done to improve your reception). That was when you lost WIVB (probably a coincidence). Looking back at your posts, I'm not sure you have ever gotten perfect reception from your current set-up.

I recall that you were struggling on many channels until you took back that unknown-spec pre-amp from the Shack and instead replaced it
with a reliable Channel Master 7778 pre-amp. Only a couple weeks after that, the repairs started happening and you ran into trouble with WIVB. Around the same time as the transmitter repairs were completed, the weather changed. Given the changes in the weather, there is definitely room to debate whether the weather has contributed to your loss of reception of WIVB, whether the contours have changed, or a combination of both factors.

Even if this transmitter repair had never happened, it is possible that this loss of reception on WIVB (CBS) might have been in your future due to the change in weather.

Just to confirm this, you're using an Antennas Direct C2 in an attic with a 7778 preamp?

I think you should still have a bit of room for self-doubt here. In any case, WIVB will not be making any changes for you. There remains significant room for improvement in terms of upgrading to an antenna with more gain. A four-bay from your location will have a wide enough beamwidth and more gain.

This WIVB situation is clearly giving you cause for puzzlement and frustration. When you read through the posts here, you must be noticing that the Clearstream 2 antenna is not commonly-used - especially in attic situations. WIVB is right on the bubble for you. It wants to come in. An extra 3 or 4 db of antenna gain might be all you need to solve your troubles.

If you want to borrow my extra 4-bay antenna, I'd be happy to lend it to you to test it out.

I wonder if it has anything to do with all of the new condo construction on Lakeshore that may be affecting the signal. So strange - never a problem with FOX before, it was always one of the strongest channels at my location.

I noticed in your post that you receive PBS with an analogue signal. I thought all U.S. ota broadcasts were now digital. We certainly stopped receiving PBS after they converted to digital in 2009. How do you receive it?
Keithko

Hi Keithko,

Welcome to the forum. I'm afraid I don't know which message you're referring to.

I haven't seen any posts referring to PBS being watched in analog.

WNED rf43 from Buffalo appears as 17.1 PBS-HD, 17.2 PBS-SD, 17.3 PBS Think Bright.

Could you be confusing analog and digital with another discussion going on in another thread about WNED's choice to broadcast a standard definition copy of their HD channel (both digital) on its subchannel?

I wonder if it has anything to do with all of the new condo construction on Lakeshore that may be affecting the signal. So strange - never a problem with FOX before, it was always one of the strongest channels at my location.
Bingo. I was thinking the same thing. All those new condos by the lake. Could I ask what neighbourhood your located in south Etobicoke.

Thanks

You have my configuration correct.

HWP, I had originally purchased a 4228HD to put in my attic, but then realized it was too large to fit through my hatch so I gave it to my father and purchased the CS2. Which antenna would you recommend that would fit through my hatch? The 4228 was a couple inches too large to fit.

Another issue is beam width. I aim at Buffalo and still receive Hamilton 11.1 with the CS2, which is a channel I enjoy.

I'm wondering if the digital changeover in August will improve the situation as analog channels shut down and reduce interference. Obviously, I only need a tiny amount of improvement to remedy the situation. Now that winter reception seems to have settled down, I have tiling issues on 4.1, 2.1, and 7.1 on most nights, with 7.1 and 2.1 occasionally dropping out and 4.1 often dropping out. 29.1/2, 23.1, 49.1/2, and 17.1/2/3 are rock solid.

It's not a huge issue to me if it only last a couple of months because everything I watch on the U.S. networks that I have issues with (7.1, 4.1, 2.1) is also available on Canadian channels. I'd appreciate your thoughts.

Schmerpy,

I looked at the Antennas Direct website and noticed the four-bay Antennas Direct DB4 has a gain of 13.7dB. That's quite a bit stronger gain than the CS2. It would definitely fit into your attic. And as a four-bay antenna, its beam width is probably not a problem for you.

I would also say consider the Channel Master 4221hd, but the published gain figures are very similar to the CS2 that you already have.

It's too bad. I had an extra DB4 for sale in this forum and I just sold it for $35. In a recent message, I offered to lend it to you.

Reading the tea leaves, though, I believe that Antennas Direct is going to be releasing a bunch of new antennas in 2011. I'm waiting to see what they come up with. Any new antennas I buy for now will be used ones. The next new antenna I buy will be one the the new Antennas Direct ones.

Good luck!

Thanks, HWP. Too bad...I'd have given you $35 to try it out...

I'm not too concerned about the situation I have. Everything is back strong again this morning.

Another factor is that my Toshiba television tuner is stronger than my CM-7000PAL tuners and my Toshiba television usually receives everything. It's the CM-7000PAL that has really been losing 2.1/4.1/7.1 lately, but anything I record from those stations I just grab the equivalent broadcast from a Canadian network.

So, half of the issue for me is the quality of the CM7000-PAL tuners, which has always disappointed me. That PVR loses stations long before my television does. I've done several tests too, and the issue is the PVR, not the antenna/cable/splitter setup.

Last night, for the first time in a few weeks, I got a visit from ION, qubo, and ION Life. It was on for several hours. It could still be there; I haven't checked.

I enjoyed several months of RF23 WPXJ (ION) from when I first went OTA in June until mid-December. I lost it when the temperature dropped and all of the snow started flying south of the border. I guess yesterday it was warmer or whatever other atmospheric influence went back to the way it was before.

I would love to get onto my roof to put up a 7778 pre-amp to replace my ground-based Kitztech 100 vg. Since getting my HDHomeRun (with its signal analysis tools), I have discovered I am experiencing some overload effects. I have not played with the variable gain setting on my Kitztech but I will try. Everything used to be so simple before winter. With the Kitztech, I get a bit of overload that I can see/hear on WGRZ (NBC). But when I disconnect the Kitztech, I lose CityTV and CHCH. So it's better to have the Kitztech connected to get all of my channels and I live with the occasional minor annoyance on WGRZ.

I keep thinking if I could get onto my roof and try out the 7778, I might be able to get a winter lock on WPXJ (ION). Overload could remain a concern, but by the time the signal reached my TV tuners through 40-odd feet of rg6, the grounding block, and my non-powered 8-way Channel Master 3218 splitter, and then back through more RG6 to the various outlets throughout the house, there might be enough attenuation to eliminate the overload. My antennas are turned away from Toronto/Hamilton quite a bit (they face WGRZ). By eliminating the ground-level amping, I could perhaps eliminate the overload and get more solid signals from ION, CHCH, and CityTV.

I can't wait for Aug 2011.

Believe it or not, I am using seven of my TV outlets on my splitter (five TVs and two to the HDHomeRun). The unused outlet is capped.

Schmerpy, I have heard similar feedback about the CM7000PAL from others. I have decided to go the route of using a Windows 7 PC with its included Windows Media Centre PVR function along with the HDHomeRun's dual tuners to create my PVR. I am happy with my HDHomeRun tuner sensitivity. Even with my bad ION reception this winter, my HDHomeRun has locked-in to all of the iffy stations [WPXJ, CITS, CHCH, TCT (rf26)]. Haven't bought the computer yet, though. As of now, I still have one extra Channel Master 4221hd that you can feel free to try out.

For any readers out there considering OTA TV, please note that my complaints are really those of a hobbyist. I am getting excellent 99% or better reception on all the the major networks - about 25 channels. I'm obsessing about locking in channels that most people don't even care about.

I'd love to grab ION. I'm tempted to put my antenna outside to see if I can grab it, but there are several reasons I don't:

1. It's ugly, and I live in a townhouse. If everyone did it, the place would look terrible, with an antenna sticking out every 16 feet;
2. I'd have to run a ground cable, which is a pain; and
3. You avoid the ice storm / wind / antenna damage realities of having an outdoor antenna if you put it in the attic.

Realistically, TVFOOL indicates I won't get ION anyway, so I otherwise can live with the results of my attic setup.

An antenna on every roof would be beautiful, I think. :)

Funny. I agree in that sense. :)

hello, I'm new to the site, my first post. been reading it for a couple of months, and now i'm in need of some advice.

i decided to got ota over the holidays. Had a CM4221HD installed with winegard AP8700. One panasonic plasma TV, but heading for 3 (no splitter yet). total of 65' coax between antenna and tv. antenna is 30' above grade, on a pole on chimney above roofline. faces generally SSE.

here is TV fool http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dda32448c7a644e

installer tried a cm4228HD first, but we got into overload problems from the tower, so went with the 4221HD, which solved the overload but lost sig strength, and then added the preamp to overcome. that seemed to be a logical method to me.

all toronto come in no problem, but buffalo a real disappointment. only wnlo. i'm thinking we haven't got it pointed right. i seem to have the same set up as hwp, and am not too far away. in your experience is it really just trial and error from here on in... or am i overloading the receiver?

Welcome to the forum bmwalenius!

We are relatively close to each other. But when you look at our respective TVFool reports, you'll notice that the CN Tower and your Buffalo transmitters are in a very similar line - only off by a few degrees from your house. At my place they're approximately 45 to 60 degrees away from each other. I guess that helps.

I installed OTA on two of my neighbours' homes this past fall and both of them are still getting EVERYTHING including the religious channels from Jamestown TCT 26, CTS, CHCH, ION - and all of the usual channels. The two neighbours have 4221hds with a 7778 preamp and are pointed at WGRZ or maybe even a tweak more east than that. I was at my neighbours' two nights ago and confirmed his reception even in this colder weather.

How accessible is your antenna? Did you get anything from the Buffalo with no amplification? That would be my first area of troubleshooting. With no amp at all, does the situation improve? If you can't get up there to remove your pre-amp, you might be stuck until spring unless your installer is willing to come back and tweak some more.

Do you have obstacles like trees or buildings blocking you?

I'm sure your installer must have been at a loss when you only got one US channel. I can get about half of the US channels using a 4221hd in my basement.

That might be another angle for you to troubleshoot. Try some rabbit ears on your ground or second floor or construct a coat hanger two-bay just to see if you can better the rooftop install.

Something seems off here to me.

Remember, I talked about my other friend in a condo at Sheppard and Bayview on the fifteenth floor and he gets everything including ION using an exposed ten inch length of RG6 copper taped to his window ledge indoors. He's got the same angle as you do.

Can you try some of these troubleshooting experiments and report back?

HWP's TVFOOL:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d81a3aeebbfaafe

thanks. winter access isn't a problem, we can get to the antenna standing on a ladder in the driveway.

i don't recall how many buffalo we got with the first 4228 attempt. the installer almost immediately diagnosed it as 'overload' because his tuner couldn't resolve more than 8 or 9 channels. from my tv fool, buffalo and the cn tower are about 13 deg away from each other, which is what the installer thought caused the immediate overload. the smaller 4221 deals with the strong toronto signals better, but at a near complete loss of buffalo.

no trees in the way. there is a 4 story commercial building about 1/4 mile away, that i am probably pointing towards.

i'll try your suggestion and a few other ideas and report back.

...
i don't recall how many buffalo we got with the first 4228 attempt. the installer almost immediately diagnosed it as 'overload' because his tuner couldn't resolve more than 8 or 9 channels. from my tv fool, buffalo and the cn tower are about 13 deg away from each other, which is what the installer thought caused the immediate overload. the smaller 4221 deals with the strong toronto signals better, but at a near complete loss of buffalo.

no trees in the way. there is a 4 story commercial building about 1/4 mile away, that i am probably pointing towards.
...

I don't understand your installer's decision to remove the 4228HD in favour of the 4221. The 4228HD is more directional than the 4221 so the installer could have reduced the signal level from the Toronto stations by pointing it farther east which would have reduced the antenna gain toward the CN Tower while keeping higher gain toward the Buffalo stations. I also don't understand using a preamp with 19 dB gain if the problem was signal overload. Antennas don't overload - preamps do. Did he try the antenna without a preamp first to get an idea how much preamp gain is necessary? HWP suggested removing the preamp to see what you get - that's a good idea. If you need some gain you might consider a different preamp with better overload resistance and less gain to provide sufficient signal for splitting to multiple sets. Winegard shows a model HDP-269 designed for that purpose.

There is something else to consider. If you are west of Yonge street you might have problems with the wall of high rise buildings in the area bounded by Yonge, Keewatin, Mt. Pleasant and Soudan Avenue. East of Mt. Pleasant there are high buildings along Eglinton but not with the density found just east of Yonge. The potential for blockage looks worse if you are south of Lawrence and west of Yonge.

Just a few ideas to consider. Good luck.

thanks georgemx. i spent some time on the phone with the installer today on similar thoughts. we didn't spend as much time pointing/repointing the 4228 (without the amp) as we did with other setups. He saw the overload, tried a couple different positions, and moved on pretty quickly to the 4221. the amp only went in on the 4221 in an effort to find buffalo. overload wasn't a problem with the 4221. I knew nothing about overload at the time... (now know more than i ever cared to!!)... so didn't question the decision. I do recall we were pointing more south than east with the 4228, so we might have eliminated the best setup too quickly.

I'm curious about your statement "antennas don't overload..pre-amps do". The initial overload was with the 4228HD, pointed at the tower, with no amp. he turned it east away from the tower (though i'm now not sure he turned it enough), saw overload again, and made the decision to go to the lower gain 4221. we then started pointed at the tower again, moving east to find buffalo.

i've now asked him to focus on pulling in buffalo, and we'll see what happens with toronto. i think the right strategy is to get the far stuff to come in, and fine tune for the local. so we'll try to 4228 again, and try to fine tune it for buffalo. i think i'll have him start really east, and gradually rotate south to find buffalo first, without getting drowned by the tower.

i am a 1/2 block west of yonge, north of lawrence. I know the cluster of high rises you reference. i plotted the buffalo stns using FCC DTV map tool, and the line of site between my house and buffalo goes right over eglinton and mt pleasant. so definitely a complication, but my line of sight is east of the big concentration closer to yonge, so hopefully we can dodge that! from there, the line of sight goes overtop of bloor and bayview (more condos and office towers) and then almost straight overtop the don river valley.