The 4228 is much more directional than the 4221 and thus would need to be used with a rotor.

citydragon, Not bad for a garbage antenna like the ANT711. Imagine what you could do with a good antenna like a CM 4221.
For all of you who've posted the virtues of the CM 4221, my profound thanks!!

I got one on ebay last week and even with it lying against my house in Etobicoke 3 feet above the ground and not aiming it anywhere in particular (it was pointed South Southeast fortunately), I got 7 Buffalo and 5 Toronto stations (pus subchannels) with my Samsung SIR-T451 tuner.

When I started actually raising it and pointing it I even pulled in 26-1 in Jamestown, NY.

A very impressive piece of equipment!

I got one on ebay last week and even with it lying against my house in Etobicoke

Fantastic results, El Gran Chico! Where are you located in Etobicoke?

OK I've raised my antenna (CM 4221) up 80cm and adjusted the angle a bit and here are my results from before and after... the 2nd number is after... also with my tv's tuner i need at least 30% signal for a steady image... also im located at martingrove & rexdale

2) NBC - 30-45% | ~60%
4) CBS - 0-10% | 35-45%
5) CBC - ~95% | 90-95%
7) ABC - 5-10% | 30-40% (fluctuating sometimes)
9) CTV - ~90% | ~90%
23) CW23 ~70% | ~65%
25) CBCF ~90% | ~90%
29) FOX 25-45% | ~60%
43) PBS 5-20% | ~50%
49) MYTV 15-25% | 30-40% (fluctuating sometimes)
57) CITY ~90% | ~80-85%
66) SUN 65-80% | ~60%

so huge improvement in buffalo reception as you can see... i lost a bit of toronto especially suntv... i have a 10db indoor amp which makes a big difference for suntv... without it right now would be fluctuating from 10-50%... other channels like CBS, PBS, MYTV and ABC also got a 5-15% boost and more stable... i also tried to point it at rochester but got 0% across the line... managed to get a mere 5% from jamestown wnyb... the bad weather today really doesnt help at all... still im pretty happy with these results:) ... they will improve even more during the night probably

i have a 10db indoor amp

Using a good quality pre-amp instead should improve things as a stronger signal going into the amplifier will mean a better Signal to Noise Ratio (SNR).

Eliminator I have one of those Sanyo tvs too and all the Buffalo stations are 95% except MY TV at 75%.I suggest you try a preamp at the antenna say a Winegard ap4700.You will need a stronger signal to maintain Buffalo under all conditions.

well im not so sure a preamp would improve things much.... they cost as much as an antenna and id rather get a 4228 if i really have to... ive only got about 26' of cable from the antenna to my indoor amp... tomorrow im going to move it up and ill have about 17' or so to the amp and hope i get a bit of improvement... so far the signal is pretty good... ive been watching abc for a few hours and its quite stable so far... mytv is the only one thats not stable right now...

well im not so sure a preamp would improve things much...Make that 3 of us who recommend trying a preamp in your case, if you can.

Also for everyone reading: with outdoor antennas having some problems while mounted low or near a structure, a re-aim with a boost in antenna height is always your first debugging step. ;)

well i moved up the amplifier to make the distance to the amp shoter by about 10' or so and it made no difference... signal fluctuates a bit for channels 7,43,49... it was better this morning and last night... im not gona bother with a preamp since the entire setup cost me around $120 and its not bad... what i need is more height but i cant go any higher since strong winds might force the antenna out of its place

... what i need is more height but i cant go any higher since strong winds might force the antenna out of its place
How much have you played with your aim?? From my location (401/Avenue) I can "lock" onto everything in Buffalo with three different very distinct aims. (The range between the two furthest locations is over 25 degrees!)

It drove me batty as I got quite a bouncy signal from ABC, CBS, Fox and MyTV. After a good week of getting frustrated I decided to start from scratch and rotate my rotor to way past my current aim and slowly rotate in 5 degree increments. I kept going and found the three aims that would pick up all Buffalo stations at first blush.

I then went back and monitored the signal from all Buffalo stations for each of these three aims. (Fortunately, I have a modded dtvsignal application in Linux that lets me cycle through a list of channels quickly to get a picture of signal strength for all channels simultaneously.)

I finally found an aim that was not bouncy for all channels.

I am using a more directional 4228, but given my experience I am always quick to recommend getting a rotor if you really want to fine tune your setup.
(Or get on a ladder and play with the aim if it is safe to do so. My setup is most definitely not safe to climb up and re-aim.)

A friend with a 4221 and no rotor a few blocks from my place does not get everything I get. (We need to climb up and play with his aim.) Though he is mighty happy nonetheless given how little he spent to get setup.

Good luck. Cheers.

i played around with the aim a lot... this was the best position that i could get for pbs and cbs... it was either point towards mytv and lose pbs+cbs or the other way around and i picked pbs/cbs... at this position i lost a bit of toronto and a bit of fox/cbs but those are strong and reliable so doesnt matter... abc didnt even come in while i was testing it but it worked good last night... today is a different story... had good signal for 4,7,43,49 all morning but the rest of the day the only good one was 4.... the other 3 buffalo stations are rock solid 24/7

Then add me to the list recommending trying a preamp when you get a chance. Based on what has been said, it seems the next step to try. A 4228 would also probably be good, but it is extremely directional so you might lose Toronto stations while getting better Buffalo reception depending on your location.

The 4228 optimal range of reception is something like 15 degrees while the 4221 is around 45 degrees I believe. However, despite that rating, I find the Toronto stations are so close that I can rotate way outside of this optimal window and still get Toronto stations with my 4228/preamp setup. The 15 degrees definitely applies for the Buffalo stations in spades.

Ok I got my anttena up and installed safely and correctly.
The antena is a DB4 (Similar to CM4221)
Cable RG6
Lighting Arester
Grounding Block
Ground wire block and antten pole.

Total run of cable is 71 feet.

2-1 77% Seems stable
2-2 77% Seems stable
4-1 77% Seems stable
5-1 97% Stable
7-1 68% Will bounce as low as 48% :(
9-1 80% Stable
29-1 58% Not stable swings from 66% - 30% and even 0% :(
43-1 20% Will bounce as high as 40% as low as 0%
43-2 20% Will bounce as high as
43-3 20%
57-1 81%

I really wanted Fox the most but no matter what angel I aim the antena that seems to be the best I can do for that station.

I live kipling and the westway One block west of Kipling collegete.

Question...I dont want to use a preamp for fear I will overdrive the stonger signals. I belive it will help with the dropout problems though. Is there something I can try?

The 4228 optimal range of reception is something like 15 degrees while the 4221 is around 45 degrees I believe.

I assume these are the 3dB beam widths (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/glossaryA.html#beam). Since the 4228 provides about 3dB of additional gain over the 4221 the 6db beam width of the 4228 would provide a better comparison to the 3dB beam width of the 4221. From HDTV Primer (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html) I would guess it is around 30 or 35 degrees.

Pretty good roger1818.

Also from UHF Channel 60+ the 4221 has better gain that might help those who need Sun.

If you notice that at 30' the 4228 is down almost 12db, while the 4221 is only down 5db plus the difference in gain the 4228 has 2.5db on average.

Overall at 30' the 4221 has almost 5db more gain, making this antenna a good choice for stationary setup..

GM PARTS GUY, any chance of taking down that DB4 and replacing it with a CM4221, Delhi 4BT-1483, or Winegard PR4400? They all outperform the DB4, which has serious problems in the lower UHF range in comparison. I hope its not too late.

The distances given in the HDTV primer article are rather humourous. According to it the CM4221 should be used in the 20-35 mile range. Toronto is located about 80 miles from Buffalo south and many of us are able to receive these channels with a CM4221 - mine is even in my attic! Rochester is about 94 miles from Toronto and I can get these channels at times as well.

Wayne, over the past few years of seeing results here, the combination of the directionality of the Buffalo transmissions with the effect of Lake Ontario has changed my real-world OTA antenna performance expectations compared to almost any other location in Canada I am familiar with. I always rank the CM4228 first, but when the CM4221 and similar antennas were shown to perform so well in similar situations in that particular area of the country I chalked it up to the specific local conditions.

To me this is vindication of the real value of the OTA Forum Reception Results threads. :) I think we need to avoid letting this thread go into an antenna comparison mode.

Yes its to late to return. I assume that also means a pre amp wont help with the drop out.

Maybe you can replace it and resell it on ebay or craigslist? Anyways a preamp might help but no guarantees. Here's the thread on OTA signal amplifiers, and we'll discuss your situation there:

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=42426