Jakeman3,

Thanks for posting your results. Could you add your nearest intersection to your post for the benefit of future readers?

I was very curious to see how you did. I'm not getting a lock on CKVR even when pointed at it using my rotator. I get a sniff, but no lock. Chalk one up for you!

I do get WPXJ rock-solid and strong for me, but at times requires aim.

WBBZ is definitely a reliable and watchable channel most of the time (at least so far - I expect it to disappear in the coldest weather).

I know how you feel about the Winegard hd7697p. One the one hand, you can feel great because you're getting amazing reception and extra channels that most in Toronto with UHF-only 4221hd antennas aren't able to get. But on the down side there is that lingering doubt that perhaps the 7698 or the Antennacraft HBU55 (Stampeder's Antenna Chart most recommended) might have been the right choice.

I have a feeling at some point, the curiosity will get me and I'll have to go for it and get an Antennacraft HBU55 and compare it against the 7697. If it outperforms, I'll let you and everyone know.

But for now, the best performing antenna in Toronto appears to be the 7697 with pre-amp and rotator. But if anyone out there is inclined to go with mine or Jakeman's set-up, consider the 7698 or HBU55. On paper, they might be better. We need someone out there to prove it.

Congrats, Jakeman3, on going OTA in Toronto...and for doing it right the first time!

I wasn't sure how to edit my original message. My nearest intersection is Keele and St. Clair

Where can one buy the 7698 or HBU55? I don't see them at Save and Replay or World Wide Satellites.

SnR has the Winegard 7698 in stock ususally..
Their website doesn't seem to list it but I know they have them.

I hope this isn't a stupid question, but I receive great reception using a 4221HD antenna. Would I receive better reception of the same stations I already get if I switched to a 7698 or a HBU55 or will I just receive more stations, ie ones that might be farther away? I am asking because I switched from the 4221HD to the DBe4 and the latter was actually the same or slightly worse on all stations yet it's supposed to be a better antenna. And, I didn't get any more stations than before.

Attach,

You stated earlier that you don't care about and aren't interested in the following stations:

WPXJ rf23 (Ion, qubo, and Ion Life)
WBBZ rf7 (MeTV & ThisTV)
CHCH rf11 Hamilton
CKVR rf10 Barrie CTV2 (maybe, if it is at all possible)

Those are the only channels you really stand to increase your chances of pulling in by changing to a combo-yagi antenna. If you're already getting good reception of the main Buffalo channels that you care about, I don't think you're going to get any extra value out of these other antennas. You're probably better off sticking with the 4221hd.

If you switch to a combo yagi you're increasing your chances of needing both a pre-amp and rotator. You'd need the pre-amp for WBBZ and you'd need the rotator because the antenna is more directional than a 4-bay UHF antenna.

Ok that's what I thought.

Well, as I posted on the Tivo thread, the Premiere degrades the channels too much, it can't handle a pre-amp and a variable attenuator didn't help the situation much so I am stuck with watching great live OTA with direct connect to my HDTV. But, since DVR capability is a must for me I'm going to have to go back to cable. I may try a Tivo HD if I can get my hands on one and Tivo will agree to transferring my $10/mos subscription to that unit.

Maybe others can benefit from my experience: If you are trying to get all the main Buffalo stations (ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX & PBS) OTA with a Tivo Premiere unless all the signal strengths for those stations are very strong you maybe be in for a lot of experimentation and an unhappy result in the end.

...or, others could pursue an HTPC (Home Theatre Personal Computer) with an HDHomeRun or USB dual-tuner, using Windows 7, Windows Media Center, or other EPG software.

I definitely agree, though, before spending big $$$ on a Tivo or Channel Master 7000PAL, read through the threads on these devices.

attach , I have experimented a lot with DB8 .I tried 7778 and 7777 preamps with no luck. The best performance I got by using channel master distribution amplifier.But when I installed different antenna and tried both preamps I got great results.

bev fan: So exactly which different antenna model did you get the best result with?

Btw, I got better results with the 4221HD than with the DB4e.

I have HD Stacker antenna that I bought in the states. Overall it is way better antenna than DB8.It is very multidirectional so for my location a rotor is not required , the only time I would need a rotator is when pointing at Barrie to receive CKVR which is not reliable anyway.Sometimes I get WBBZ in the evenings , Ion stations are coming stronger but not all the time.I replaced 7778 preamp with 7777 to have more luck with Ion but with no success. I am not sure if it is even possible to get those stations with any antenna in my location at 100% reliability.By pointing at Buffalo I get get very strong signals from all stations , between 90% and 100%.CHCH is coming at 95 % where with DB8 I was getting only about 65% so sometimes I had to point my antenna at Hamilton. Next antenna that I would like to try would be HBU 55 , but I will have to wait till spring as it is getting to cold to climb up the ladder.

bev fan, could you post a tvfool chart for your location? I've been thinking about getting an HD Stacker.

Hi Bev Fan,

Glad to see things are working out good for you with your new HD Stacker :p I also was looking at the HD Stacker earlier this spring it looked like a very good overall combo. What I was surprised when you mentioned you found it a fairly multi directional antenna, then again that’s from your location. I would have thought it would have been more of a highly directional antenna (Upper UHF band) with that Yagi combo and rotor would be required.

I am also trying to stabilize my reception of Ion it has been a lot better since the switchover to digital. For the last month or so it has been combining daily, but lately as it gets colder the signal level has dropped off. I am in a very difficult location something like a hole in the ground or should I say a valley. Lots of trees although I am happy to say the leaves are gone and I only have to deal with evergreens :eek:. The reception has improved and with the cold weathers less signal fluctuations through out the day.

I have been trying to maximize the CM4228 (Original), I tried to increase the reflector size testing it at ground level. It seem to increase the Lower VHF band signals I notice my CHCH signal went up to 80% but I am looking to increase ION 23. There is no way I can test for Ion at ground level, I really need to get it up on the roof to see if there is any real improvement. It may have to wait to spring and I want experiment more with the reflector config.

As for now well I am receiving all the stations US & Canadian, just missing Ion and Wbbz. Now if I lived just up the hill I would gain 55ft higher and I am sure I would lock on to Ion constantly.

As mentioned before a 91xg dedicated just for receiving Ion might work for me? Or as you say it might just be that it possible to get Ion 100% for me as well. In general I am very happy overall after the digital transition and haven’t given up yet.

BTW where did you pick it up in the states? MI? what kit did you purchase?

Good luck with the HUB-55 :D

Hi Biggy,
I bought stacker antenna on line from Denny's antenna service.
Cost of antenna:
-$129.00 antenna
-$25.00 delivery
-$26.00 duty
As you can see it is quiet costly and it took 2 weeks to get it delivered.I did not have to purchase any additional kits.

Hi Bev Fan,

As you can see it is quiet costly

Looking at what you get it’s not bad for two antennas, the only draw back is the duty and delivery charges you had to add on to the cost, and even so it’s not unreasonable. I am surprised you had to pay duty with free trade, I guess it is not not as free as we think :(. I ordered a small FM antenna way back when from Lafayette Electronics USA it was around $15 by the time I got it the total price went up to around $65. In those days there was know free trade and I got hit by duty, taxes, board handling fees and shipping.

If I were going to do another installation the HD Stacker was one of several other options I had in mind. I also was considering a 91xg and with vhf antenna combo, but it’s hard to beat price of HD Stacker combo delivered right to your door. What I really like about the HD Stacker is it design, it comes combined ready to go and with it’s relatively small foot print, keeps the wind load off a chimney mounts.

Thanks for sharing your results, please keep us updated.

bev fan: So exactly which different antenna model did you get the best result with?

I read through your posts and I think I understand your problem from a technical perspective. You have very strong signals from the CN Tower and First Canadian Place compared with the signals from the US stations. The ratio of the signal powers (CDN/US) is too high for the tuner in the PVR and is likely causing desensitization. You note that you are having trouble with WNED 17 which is actually RF43 and immediately adjacent to CITY on RF44. Further, Global with 100KW is the second adjacent on channel 41. WNED is 160 KW toward Toronto but 82 km away.

Based on Google Earth and the middle of St. Clair and Mt. Pleasant as your location, you are about 5.3 km from the CN Tower on a bearing of 183 degrees. Your antenna is pointed on a bearing of 164 degrees so the CN Tower is just 19 degrees off the centerline. I couldn't find the antenna pattern for the 4221HD but I think you will only be down about 3 dB from the peak gain of the antenna for CN Tower stations that are already very strong where you live. If I compare your location with HWP, he is slightly farther away at 6.6 km but with a bearing to the tower of 219 degrees. The CN Tower is 55 degrees off the centerline at his location so the antenna gain will be very low for CN Tower stations.

As I noted above, I can't find the pattern for the 4221HD but I could get the pattern for the Winegard HD7698P off the Internet. The patterns are not easy to read, but you can see the difference in gain between 19 degrees and 55 degrees. Gain for this antenna is only about 3 dB below maximum at 19 degrees while it is effectively nothing at 55 degrees.

I don't know if your problem with the PVR is solvable but if you want to try to improve the situation the best bet is a more directional antenna than the one you are using. High gain and high directionality go together so something like a stacked pair of 4228 antennas might be more effective. I don't think that adding a preamplifier will be helpful in your case because it amplifies both the US and local stations by the same amount and increases the potential for tuner desensitization and overload. In most cases, preamplifiers are beneficial but with very high local signal levels as in your case they may cause problems.

ATSC is designed to work well on adjacent channels but the signal levels are supposed to be relatively close in value. When one channel is local while the other is distant, the signal ratio between the two stations causes problems. In the Toronto area, people often report problems with WGRZ on RF33 which is adjacent to WNLO on RF32. WGRZ is located south of Buffalo well over 100 kms away from Toronto. WNLO is north of Buffalo on Grand Island about 40 kms away. WNLO transmits with roughly twice the power of WGRZ. When you add these factors together, it is not surprising that WGRZ drops out from time to time.

Hello all,

Thought I'd share some success I've had with getting CFTO back from the (post-conversion) dead. Sunday was the Santa Claus Parade, which was the impetus I needed to finally get this sorted out. This may be useful for other folks in a similar situation.

Problem:
- My UHF antennas aren't able to lock onto CFTO's signal after the shift back down to 9.1
- Everything else in Toronto/Buffalo comes in ok

Setup:
- Royal York & Bloor
- Pair of stacked 4221hd
- 30' elevation, pointed at Buffalo
- distribution amp
- split to both sides of an HDHR

Wanted to see if a VHF-High antenna would solve the problem, so I made a proof of concept out of two 31" lengths of grounding wire capped onto the leads of a matching transformer that I had lying around. Stuck it on the south side of my house about 8' off the ground (vertical, taped to the roof-top antenna cable).

Result:
- The VHF "antenna" picked up every station broadcasting from the CN Tower/FCP, including all of the UHF stations. CFTO was rock solid

Result x2:
- For the heck of it added a simple combiner and ganged it onto the rooftop UHF antenna cable to see how the HDHR manages both at once
- No apparent interference issues - CFTO is now at 95-100% signal quality and no apparent loss for other stations
- This appears to solve the problem, so I'm going to leave it as is and see what happens. Current solution is free and basically invisible so no real incentive to do it properly

Now I know that there are all sorts of issues with ganging and mixing signals, but my goal was only to add CFTO and this seems to work. Thought I might need another receiver but the HDHR isn't having any problems with the ganged solution. I suspect that keeping the VHF antenna so low to the ground helps as well, since it prevents cross-talk from the more distant stations.

If you invest a few bucks in a UHF/VHF signal joiner, you will eliminate any risk of interference between your UHF antennas and the DIY VHF antenna.

If you invest a few bucks in a UHF/VHF signal joiner, you will eliminate any risk of interference between your UHF antennas and the DIY VHF antenna.
Was wondering about that - if I use a signal joiner will I need to split the VHF/UHF back out when it gets to the HDHR, or will I be able to feed them both in on the same cable?

Thanks!

GeorgeMX: Thanks for that detailed message. I appreciate the trouble you went to analyze my situation and write that. Also, I am very interested in the reasons behind what I am experiencing with my antenna and Tivo and what you are saying makes sense. I will try the 4228HD, but I am unsure what you mean by stacked. Does that mean to get two of them and put one on top of the other on the pole? Would I connect them together using a splitter? Wouldn't that introduce a signal loss? Also, why would one 4228HD not be enough? I wouldn't imagine that two of them would give me double the gain or signal but exactly what do I get by adding the second one? Not opposed to it but just trying to understand why.

Btw, I finally received a response from a detailed message I sent to Tivo customer support and their response was that I was experiencing noise and that that 'noise is an issue with Tivo tuners' and that my HDTV tuner did not experience the same result as 'its function is to capture and store the incoming signal'. I don't really understand that comment as I thought that that was what all tuners, including the Tivo tuner are supposed to do to with the extra function of the Tivo tuner also recording the signal on a hard disk. They also said that I should 'consider' the signal-to-noise ratio that I am experiencing and attempt to find an 'optimal balance between signal strength and signal noise in order to achieve an SNR within the optimum range for the Tivo unit to utilize'. Being I am in a fixed location with fixed broadcast towers I am not sure how they expect me to achieve that, but then they wrote that 'regrettably there is little to be done to correct SNR on an over the air signal' (which they probably should have said first). All of that was very unhelpful to me but I was not surprised.

Anyway, I will try your suggestion and report back. Also, I am wondering why my Panasonic Viera has no problem with the antenna. Is it because it has better tuner circuitry, better tuner software or both? Would it have cost Tivo that much more to put in a better tuner?