evilmonk,
Believe HWP is referring to me. See Posts#1956-1964.

My alignment is almost the same as yours – you’re probably just NW of me. My distance to CN Tower is 4.3 miles.

I have a homebrew antenna (GH6n3) that I just finished building and mounting. Received the Winegard HDP-269 I bought, based on HWP’s suggestion, this afternoon and will mount it asap. I’ll be happy to let you try it, just send me a PM (private message) thru the Forum with your contact info.
Thanks for the offer Björn, based on your tvfool it looks like you're pretty close (I'm on Eglinton about 2 blocks west of Bathurst). Reading your posts from earlier today it seems you're encountering many of the same problem channels as I am, and it looks like adding the preamp seemed to make them worse :/

For now I'm going to try HWP's suggestions of attenuating the signal with a splitter and/or experiment with the aiming a bit. I'm hoping I can get Fox for the UFC this Saturday. I will post an update when I get a chance. Thanks for the input.

Attach,
Remember when the Super Bowl won't come in on WUTV (American ads) because your signal needs a boost in the cold weather, you may wish you had put one up now in the fall.
As a point of clarification, this years Super Bowl (XLVI) will be broadcast in the U.S. on NBC and not FOX. That means in Toronto, people need to peak their signal for WGRZ (RF 33, PSIP 2) and not WUTV (RF 14, PSIP 29). Of course, if you don't care for the American commercials, the game will air in Canada on the CTV Network and are readily available in the GTA on both CFTO (RF 9) and CKCO (RF 13).

Aside from that, I agree with what HWP says...

And talking of CKCO, HWP, have you had any luck rotating your VHF antenna towards Kitchener and pulling that station in? RabbitEars has the signal dying off once you get to Milton... http://www.rabbitears.info/contour.php?appid=1282928&map=Y

alebowgm

I have pulled in CKCO on RF13. It is locked-in my TV's memory, but I have it blocked out. So I don't know how often it comes in. I should check more. But I have definitely gotten CKCO several times. 68 miles away.

I have also gotten CFTO on rf35 from Peterborough. 66 miles.

I also get a number of analog stations from Canada espcially from the east, I believe, coming from Oshawa and Peterborough (a Global, and two CHEX, I think).

No CKVR unfortunately. It's enough to have my TV say "No Program Available" instead of "Channel Not Available" More than nothing, but still not enough to get a lock on CKVR. More than nothing, but still nothing.

I've installed my new Tivo Premiere using a US area code (can't get Canada to work yet) and my signal strength has deteriorated about 10-20% for the stations I can still get, but I can't even get a signal for 17.1, 17.3, 49.1 or 49.2 any more, 2.1 is at 37 and 29 &29.2 are at 28 and unwatchable.

I am attributing this to the fact that Tivo Premiere is known to not bring in the stations as well as the earlier model Tivo HD. I take it a pre-amp will help this situation?

The pre-amp will likely help with that situation.There are other members of the forum that have successfully dealt with your situation before.

Sorry but my saga continues with a happier outcome (does this ever end?)

I updated the software after entering the US zip code and the reception on all channels improved and now only 17.1/17.3, 49.1/49.2 (which all have signal strengths around 20-40) are unwatchable.

Amazing how a software update can improve reception. I'm going to get an amp because of this degradation and also because I am going to now split the antenna feed coming in to another TV and that will result in more loss. I'll report back.

evilmonk,
I'm a bit south of Eglinton a few blocks W of Avenue Rd, so we are faily close.

Thanks for trying to spell my name properly; you're close, but no cigar (wrong country) - it's Bjørn.

going to try HWP's suggestions of attenuating the signal with a splitter and/or experiment with the aiming a bit.
In that case I'll seal up the preamp and connections.

Hope that will work. Good luck! We probably need some of that both of us.

I've installed my new Tivo Premiere using a US area code (can't get Canada to work yet) and my signal strength has deteriorated about 10-20% for the stations I can still get, but I can't even get a signal for 17.1, 17.3, 49.1 or 49.2 any more, 2.1 is at 37 and 29 &29.2 are at 28 and unwatchable.

I am attributing this to the fact that Tivo Premiere is known to not bring in the stations as well as the earlier model Tivo HD. I take it a pre-amp will help this situation?
Yup, the Premiere needs a LOT of signal, likely a fair bit more than your tv needs. I'd definitely try the pre-amp. TiVos also hate multipath - I had to retire my trusty original 4221 for a DB-8 (works way better with my DB-8 because of the large angles at my location).

Not sure what you mean by "can't get Canada to work yet" - you can try with my postal code M8Z3M1. I know it works. For your real postal code, it's quite possible several channels are missing from the lineup. You can check it at the zap2it website since it and the TiVo pull the data from the same source. You can request changes to it although this can be frustrating and time consuming - just check the TiVo thread about what a bunch of us had to do in Septemeber with all the channel changes. I went through the ordeal to get all the Toronto/Buffalo/Hamilton/Rochester channels added to my postal code (even WBBZ which I hope to get sometime in the future :-) ). I am more than happy if others can take advantage of it too.

What I mean is that on the Tivo Premiere I chose Canada as my country and then go through the 'Getting Setup Info' screen, which does it's updating for about 3 minutes, and then when it asks for me to enter my 'postal code' I enter your code and I then get the 'Please Wait' screen for 25 minutes and it just keeps going. So, I unplugged the unit and chose US as my country, entered 14301 as the zip code (and it took 30 seconds to update). I found that code shows all the stations on the Tivo guide that I want to watch. After that process I updated the software.

I am using the 8221HD antenna, but have tons of 75' oak trees about 60' south of my antenna. I don't understand much about what multipath is but googled it a bit after reading your post. Maybe a stupid question and I may have multipath problems because of all the trees but how does the Tivo know what path the signal is taking to get to the antenna?

Save and Replay, where I bought my antenna, will let me return it for a 20% restocking, which seems fair, so if the pre-amp doesn't solve my reception problems on 17-1, 17-2, 49-1 & 49-2 then I'll swap it for the DB-8 or whatever else they let me return.

I've noticed this evening, though, that 17-1 & 17-2 are now watchable but 49-1 & 49-2 drift in and out. Maybe I should be swapping the antenna and not getting a pre-amp? I am worried about over-amplification with the pre-amp, which I guess I would not get with a stronger more multi-directional antenna and no pre-amp. Is there any general rule in this regard about which is the better way to go when one received the stations before hooking it up to a Tivo but didn't after, which means the antenna is pulling in the stations but there is a loss along the way to the TV. In any event, the Antennas Direct DB4e looks pretty good to me and isn't that much more than what I paid for the 4221HD and if I am going to change it I might as well now while I am still agile enough to climb up to the roof.

Attach, here's my thoughts:

- leave your TiVo in its current setup for at least a few days. I remember some settling in issues myself (software updates etc.). I started as a US setup too, then changed to Canadian once my lineup was fixed a few weeks later.
- your TVFOOL is much better than mine. I have over 120° between Hamilton and Toronto, with Buffalo almost exactly in the middle. The TiVo performed poorly for both the Toronto and Hamilton stations (approx. 60° off axis) with a 4221 aimed at Buffalo. If I aimed the 4221 between Buffalo and Toronto, I was fine with both Buffalo and Toronto, but of course I lost Hamilton. My best guess is the 4221 will be fine for you.
- pre-amp - I agree with HWP about the pre-amp in that it will more likely be a benefit, but the only way to know for sure is to try it.

I cross-posted this so I'll probably get into trouble but this is a multi-faceted problem involving both the antenna and Tivo:

Adding the Tivo Premiere between the TV and the antenna resulted in a loss of 4 stations so I added a distribution amp before the Tivo and I get only 3 stations and they are all Toronto stations with signal strengths of about 20-30. Apparently this may be because the amp simply provides too much of a signal and I was advised to add a 2-way splitter between the amp and the Tivo. This didn't help either. Now I am advised to add a 3-way splitter, I guess to reduce the signal even more.

What I don't get is how the signal can be too strong if the 3 stations I do get only register 20-30.

Has anyone else had any experience with this problem?

What I don't get is how the signal can be too strong if the 3 stations I do get only register 20-30.

That's because the signal reported is "signal quality", and not "signal strength".
Big difference. When signals are too strong, external devices like a preamp can create distortion which destroys the quality.

Same concept as cranking the volume way up on your stereo until all you can hear is distortion.

Ok I am at a bit of a crossroads here after posting on the Tivo thread and here. I now have the 4221HD connected to a Tivo Premiere (which degrades the signal) using 40' of RG6. I ditched the distribution amp as it over-amplified the signals (even with splitters added to reduce the gain) resulting in almost no signals.

I find when I point the antenna to about 164 degrees (which seems the best when I look at my tvfool report) I get everything I want but WGRZ drops in and out and when I point to WGRZ at 159 degrees it gets better but still drops in and out and the other channels get a bit weaker but still watchable but then CFTO starts dropping in and out. So, 164 degrees seems the best so far. Here's my tvfool report.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d4bbaca4d736b4b

For all the stations I want here's what I am getting pointing at 164 degrees. 2-1 shows 50 but it gets weaker then goes back to 50 all the time. (I received channels 49-1 and 49-2 earlier this week but they have disappeared now no matter which direction I point the antenna in!):

Ch Strength
2-1 50
4-1 68
5-1 95
7-1 58
9-1 69
17-1 72
17-3 72
19-1 92
23-1 74
29-1 76
29-2 45
41-1 48
47-1 93
49-1 0
49-2 0
57-1 92
69-1 85

So I am thinking of going with a stronger antenna or a pre-amp. The Antennas Direct DB2E has been suggested, which has a 2db gain over the 4221HD I have and a larger beam width but I am wondering if I should go with even a stronger one. Also if a pre-amp instead of a stronger antenna which one? Would both a stronger antenna and pre-amp would be overkill?

Refer to posts 1999, 1992, 1920 and 1913 in this thread. Have you tried the recommendation yet?
4221hd + pre-amp (Channe Master 7778 or Winegard 269). You have asked more than once if we thought a pre-amp would be overkill. But many of us here swear by them (Schmerpy, El Gran Chico, me).

A pre-amp is not the same as a distribution amplifier. With the distribution amp, you might be increasing the noise figure too much for your TIVO to handle.

You may want to pick-up a different antenna but since you haven't tried out the most commonly recommended solution yet (see above) it's too early to give up on your 4221hd.

If you do change antennas, the first one I'd try is the Antennas Direct DB4E (not the db2e). or a Channel Master 4228hd or an Antennas Direct DB8.

Keep us posted and good luck!

I read all of those posts intensely and noted everything but went with only the 4221HD antenna and no pre-amp to start because that's what Save and Replay recommended. They thought I shouldn't buy items that might be unnecessary (and then pay a 20% restocking fee to return them).

Anyway, the 4221HD worked well with the TV but not when the Tivo Premiere arrived. I only added the distribution amp and not a pre-amp because, again, that is what they recommended. Since the distribution amp only made things worse, I'll get one of the pre-amps you recommended tomorrow but do you have any suggestion on which of the CM7778 or Winegard 269 would be better given my tvfool report? I've done some research and am leaning to the 269, but I could be totally wrong. If a pre-amp doesn't help then I'll swap the antenna too and see what the results are with and without a pre-amp.

They also suggested the DB2e antenna instead of the DB4e but I think I'll take your recommendation of the DB4e as it's smaller but the same price as the DB8, which is an older model (but maybe just as good?). Also, they don't have the 4228HD in stock right now.

Thanks for your help.

The DB4e is a brand new antenna just out this month. But it's very intriguing. Might be perfect for Toronto...a little stronger than the 4221hd but likely the same wide beam width. It might be like having a DB8's gain and the wide beam width of a four-bay.

If you're getting sick and tired of driving to Save and Replay, then bring your 4221hd with you and exchange both the antenna and distribution amp at the same time and come home with the pre-amp and what is almost certainly the better antenna.

Good luck.

We'll all be curious to hear how a DB4e does in the east end of Toronto.

Probably that's a good idea for the extra $50 less cost of gas and my time for another trip (and I'm not on a tight budget).

I did some research and found this chart which is a Modified S-S Chart Comparing different pre-amps:

http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_ands/files/ota/Modifed%20S-S%20Chart%20Comparing%20Preamps%20-%20RevA.doc.pdf

For the Winegard 269 the maximum input for two strong signals is -20 dBm. My tvfool report my maximum input is for CBLT 5 @ -3.2 dBm, so

-3.2 dBm (tvfool report)
+15.4 dBm (DB4e antenna gain)
+7 dBm (convert to peak power as advised on the chart above)
-2 dBm (est. cable and balun loss)
= 17.2 dBm

This way exceeds the maximum input of -20 dBm and still would using the 4221HD which has a gain of 10 dBm. Even using the next strongest station of, CFMT 47 @ -11.7 dBm, would exceed the maximum input. I assume others have a very strong signal power in Toronto for CBLT and CFMT yet are using the Winegard 269. The CM7778 even has a lower maximum input of -30.8. Am I calculating this wrong or does this chart not reflect real world experience with the pre-amps or does pointing the antenna a bit away from the strongest stations alleviate this problem?

I don't know any other way to tell you, attach. We all have stong signals coming from the CN Tower, but notwithstanding all the pre-amp charts, gain-loss calculators, etc. it still works out that I am better off with a pre-amp than without one. And I have an antenna on a tower 4 miles from the CN Tower. Even pointing straight at the CN Tower, I rarely experience an overload problem that affects reception. Having a rotator removes overload as a concern altogether because I can adjust the antenna if I see a sign of overload.

If you're not overly sensitive in the budget area, then why not take my original advice and do the ideal installation (Antennacraft HUB55 or Winegard 7697 or 8 + Winegard 269 pre-amp + rotator). You had enough forsight to wire your roof properly. That's amazing. You obviously are into this, because you're spending so much time analzing all this stuff. If I were you, I'd just go for it.

You may not be overly price sensitive, but at some point this is going to start eating into your time freedom.

I don't blame you. I started with a 4221hd and no pre-amp. With benefit of hindsight, I should have just done it right the first time. I'm having a lot of fun with OTA now. And with the rotator, there is no need to go on a quest of the perfect sweet spot. Because there is no such thing as a sweet spot that works all the time.

PS: If you're picking up a Winegard 269 at Save & Replay, you ought to also pickup an FM Trap. I don't think the 269 comes with one built-in.

By the way, no need to search so far for a pre-amp comparison chart. Go to the first post in Digital Home's Signal Amplifier thread and you will find the DH Amplifier Chart. Holl_ands is an important contributor to this forum.

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=375668&postcount=1

I noted the Winegard 7697 before, but neither it nor the AntennaCraft HUB55 are on Save and Replay's website, but I guess I could get them somewhere else but then that is even more running around. Who sells them?

I don't want to get a rotor for two reasons: First, I like to keep things simple and the more devices I have the more there is to break down. However if there is a real benefit then simple goes out the window. This brings me to my second and more important reason for not getting one. I do no live TV watching and watch everything on a PVR (hopefully my Tivo Premiere because I can't wait to sell my Rogers boxes). A rotor won't automatically switch to the best reception for the station I am recording so I need to set the direction of the antenna for the perfect sweet spot for all stations.

By the way, I am splitting the signal out of the Tivo Premiere using a Ce-Labs component video distribution amplifier and IR repeaters using cat-5 component video baluns to two other TV's upstairs. I ran 2 runs of cat5e everywhere, along with 2 RG6's, everywhere too when I did my renovation. That way I can feed the one Tivo to all 3 of the TVs in the house and control it from all 3 locations, which of course means the same program plays on all TVs, but that's okay because I am the only one watching. I also don't have to worry about an splitters between the antenna and the Tivo.

Thanks for suggestion of picking up an FM trap. I never even heard of that so I didn't know I might need one but just researched it and it sounds like a good idea.

I tend to analyze everything I am interested in until I understand it fully. It's my curious nature!

I had the same reasoning for not getting a rotator. But you don't need it for every channel change. You only need it when fine-tuning a channel. You can run your PVR no problem by just leaving your rotator in the most logical place. But there will be those odd times that you'll appreciate having it.