As was announced elsewhere on the forum:

CRTC 2003-8 announcement (http://www.crtc.gc.ca/archive/ENG/Decisions/2003/db2003-8.htm)

That means they can start showing 14 hours a week of HD content that differs from the shows on the regular station, as long as half of it is Canadian content.

Flip the switch!

Does anyone know if the CRTC has defined what HD is ????

Does anyone know if the CRTC has defined what HD is ????

Canada has adopted the ATSC standard, so HD is 720p or 1080i.

City will probably be 1080i, since WB is and much of the HD content will initially be from them.

CityTV doesn't air sports either so 720p really isn't to their advantage considering that the vast majority of sets display at 1080i. ABC/ESPN is like the only stations that differ on this.


BTW see similar thread with regards to topic here (http://www.digitalhomecanada.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=26656#26656)

Let me ask the question a different way.

I expect that a lot of what we will see on City HD will be simultaneously broadcasted on a US HD network....as is the case nowdays with Global, CH, CTV, etc. In these cases we will not get to see the US version.

If city airs a FOX EDTV broadcast, will this count as HD in Canada and will we be able to see the US version if it is broadcast simultaneously.

Fortunately, those networks are the WB and UPN, for which we have never had an analogue channel on cable.

MI-2 is a Paramount picture. And City shows Enterprise (UPN).

Their first HD show will be Smallville (from the WB). And I believe I read that they'll be showing at least one Warner Bros. movie a month in HD. Gotta start somewhere, right?

I believe both the WB and UPN broadcast HD in 1080i.

I could have this wrong but ... . Wasn't there some thing in the CRTC's HDTV regs about any thing shot in widescreen had to be shown in wide screen? Wouldn't that limit the amount of SD they could slip you on the HD channel?

6. The licensee shall ensure that all programs that are simulcast on the undertaking, and that are available to the licensee in a wide screen (16:9 aspect ratio) format, are also broadcast in that format.

7. The licensee shall ensure that all programs that are simulcast on the undertaking during the evening broadcast period, and that are available to the licensee in HD, are also broadcast in HD.


They are only required to broadcast in the form they get it. It bans pan & scanning of widescreen, and rate-shifting of HD.

This is a transitional simulcast license. Not a new channel. The distinction is very important. This channel is intended to be the future CityTV channel. Eventually the license for the analogue channel will be revoked.

They are specifically required to simulcast the analogue station, however, this simulcast can be (and is required to increasingly be) HD. To allow MORE HD, sooner, the license also allows a maximum 14 hours per week of DIFFERENT content from the analogue channel. As long as it is ALL in HD, and 50% is Canadian content.

Sorry but I'm confused here...all this bureaucracy....

Does a FOX ED broadcast count as HD and can it be simalcasted??

Some (if not most) of the ABC HD movies are 4:3 movies with the top and bottom cut off. Are these movies HD as defined by the CRTC ???

Thanks...

Good questions.

First: EDTV.

If the CRTC is using the proper definitions in the ATSC standard, that would NOT qualify. HDTV is the three 720p and three 1080i rates defined under the standard. FOX is using what is called under the ATSC standard SDTV.

The term EDTV has come along to refer to 16:9 @ 480p, because people felt that SDTV was an innaccurate discription. The term EDTV isn't in the ATSC standard, I don't think. EDTV should be as good as anamorphic DVD.

But, I think it is fair to look for a clarification. And nail City if they attempt to pass of EDTV as part of the DIFFERENT 14 hours that is required to be HD.


Second: Re-matteing

I do not think the CRTC is going to get into a position if judging whether one broadcast or another constitutes REAL widescreen. There is a lawsuit right now that claims MGM is re-matteing P&S as widescreen. And the 2nd and 3rd Back to the Future discs were subjected to that and Universal is re-issuing.

The CRTC rules say you can't change the 16:9 aspect ratio, and can't downgrade the bit-rate of the content available to you. The rules aren't there to start making judgement on the quality or accurateness of the content. Merely to insure that the source isn't messed with because the broadcaster thinks "people want 4:3" or "we need reduce the bandwidth to pack more stations".

You decide on the quality or accurateness of the content with your viewing choices.


You'll note that the CRTC differentiates between widesreen content and HD content. HD is always widescreen. So, that would indicate they see the two concepts as being different, and implies they understand that you can have widescreen without HD (EDTV).

The IPG on Rogers has been updated to show MI-2 starting at 9:00 on Thursday.

It's still listed as CDTV, but at least the movie is added in correctly.

This is going to be an interesting week for HDTV. Superbowl and Citytv in HD.

If you miss MI2 on City you can catch it on ABC later in the month. Should be interesting to compare the quality.

The term EDTV has come along to refer to 16:9 @ 480p, because people felt that SDTV was an innaccurate discription. The term EDTV isn't in the ATSC standard, I don't think. EDTV should be as good as anamorphic DVD.
You are correct that 480p is SDTV as far as ATSC is concerned. EDTV is a CEA term.

Also, you might want to read the CRTC rules & regs again governing the transision to DTV. Most of the 'rules' are really voluntary. There is no penalty for not following the 'rules', but they threaten that penalties COULD be defined at some point in the future, if they see a need for it.

Probably best don't you think? I don't really want the CRTC to be a police force.

But the concept of a transitional license is that your old frequency is going to be revoked at some point. I think it serves to keep the broadcasters in line. Breaking the rules won't allow them keep the old one alive when the CRTC pulls the analogue plug, and presumably the transitional one needs to be converted to a new regular license at some point too.

Gary, my point was that you keep stating that CityTV HAS to offer this much of this and this much of that, but really they do not because like I said, most of the CRTC 'rules' are really just suggestions.

In other words, don't be surprised if 99.5% of the programming on City's DTV channel is an upconverted simulcast of their analog channel.

What I have said is:

If City receives an HD form show, they HAVE to broadcast that on the DTV channel in HD.

If City receives a show in widescreen form, they are required to broadcast in widescreen.

If they broadcast DIFFERENT (up to 14 hours per week) of content, it all has to be in HD. And half has to be Canadian.

IF

How does any of that contradict your opinion?

I don't think that 100% simulcast would violate any rule (spirit and suggestion, yes). But, I sure hope City hasn't gone to the trouble and expense of all this to merely do a 99.5% simulcast. That would be silly. What would be the point?

What I have said is:
If City receives an HD form show, they HAVE to broadcast that on the DTV channel in HD.
ONLY if it's Canadian programming!

As for widescreen, I think it could be argued that letterbox is widescreen. The rules don't make the distinction between the two.

As for why City would broadcast digital just to simulcast, I think one of the reasons was that all their equipment was basically donated and everything was set-up for them for free since they were the CDTV test facility in Toronto. It probably didn't cost them much at all, and the thought of being first is something that would be attractive to Moses!

I absolutely do laud CityTV for this effort, I just think that expectations should be kept in check. Nobody hopes I'm wrong more than me!

ONLY if it's Canadian programming!


Where does it say that?


6. The licensee shall ensure that all programs that are simulcast on the undertaking, and that are available to the licensee in a wide screen (16:9 aspect ratio) format, are also broadcast in that format.

7. The licensee shall ensure that all programs that are simulcast on the undertaking during the evening broadcast period, and that are available to the licensee in HD, are also broadcast in HD.



"All programs" not "all Canadian programs".

The HD requirement is evenings only. But, I suspect it is easier to just broadcast the HD feed rather than re-encode it, so I doubt whether that matters.

It is interesting that it says "available to the licensee" not "received by the licensee". The latter would be merely they can't fool around with what they receive. But the former could be interpreted as that they are required to request, take, and broadcast an HD feed if the source can make it available to them.

From: http://www.crtc.gc.ca/archive/ENG/Notices/2002/pb2002-31.htm

29.
The Commission considers that Canadian viewers must be provided programming of the highest quality that fully exploits the spectrum made available for digital broadcasting. The Commission will therefore require that all of the unduplicated programming broadcast by a transitional digital television station, whether it is Canadian or non-Canadian, be in the HDTV format. With respect to Canadian content, the Commission’s policies have focused on the evening broadcast period, when television audiences are the largest. Maintaining this focus for the broadcast of HDTV programming during the transition period will allow broadcasters the necessary flexibility to use their digital facilities to experiment with multicast, data and other services of lower definition, delivered during other periods of the day when television audiences are generally smaller. Accordingly:

All of the programming on the digital service that is not duplicated on the analog service must be in the HDTV format.

All Canadian programs aired during the evening broadcast period by the licensee of a transitional DTV undertaking, whether duplicated or not, are to be broadcast in the HDTV version, where such a version exists.

Consistent with the Task Force recommendation, the Commission encourages transitional DTV broadcasters to ensure that, by 31 December 2007, two thirds of each broadcaster’s schedule is available in the HDTV format.

All Canadian programs aired during the evening broadcast period by the licensee of a transitional DTV undertaking, whether duplicated or not, are to be broadcast in the HDTV version, where such a version exists.


That does seem to be an inconsistency. But, notice it uses an even STRONGER word: "exists"

We now have: available, and exists

Something can exist without being available. And be available and not be requested.

The above form could be interpretted that a Canadian source of HD will be financially punished for withholding the HD form from a Canadian broadcaster.

If the HD form exists, it must be made available to the broadcaster, or the broadcaster will have to show dead air because they won't be permitted to show the non-HD form because the HD form exists.

Huh?

Say you were a Canadian producer, and you made a deal with a border US station to broadcast a product exclusively in HD. Since you're not making it available to a Canadian broadcaster, the simulsub rules wouldn't kick in so the US broadcaster would have an exclusive.

The exist rule kills the Canadian revenue, because the Canadian broadcaster won't be able to show the show at all on their DTV station.

Clearly they wouldn't expect to be able to have any say over whether an American source makes an HD program available to a Canadian broadcaster.

Either the CRTC are complete nuts and haven't thought this out, or this is leaving things wide open to some very strict (pro-HD) interpretation.


The Commission considers that Canadian viewers must be provided programming of the highest quality that fully exploits the spectrum made available for digital broadcasting


Not should. Must.