Sorry, 5-1 had a guide at the time. Is it worth getting a Samsung at this point just for the guide?

I can pick up a Samsung for next to nothing, so if it can get a guide I'll go for it. The extra HDTV tuner can always go on a SDTV television to receive OTA broadcasts, The digital signal from OTA on a SDTV looks better than anything on cable, or satellite.
Thanks for the help,

so that must explain why my hughes hird-e86 doesnt get guide info.

does anyone get guide info for the two digital channels in vancouver?

so that must explain why my hughes hird-e86 doesnt get guide info.

does anyone get guide info for the two digital channels in vancouver?

I believe it will get guide info for OTA channels when you use the satellite, providing you set the proper zip code in the initial setup.

Several DHC threads and a few posts from this thread have been merged into a new Bell ExpressVu & Other Satellite Receivers For OTA Reception thread here in the OTA Equipment & Vendors sub-forum:

http://www.digitalhomecanada.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20730

This thread will continue with discussion of built-in HDTV ATSC tuners and any general ATSC topics not already covered in the other ATSC tuner threads in this sub-forum.

i was reading some of the results threads, and came across someone stating a station they recieved at 50% was only still frames/no motion and therefore unwatchable.

this made me wonder what causes a certain signal strength to show watchable tv, and why it is always different.

ie, for me, i find that when the signal strength for CBC is at a CONSTANT 25%, it shows without out any stuttering and is watchable.

FOX however, usually requires a 50% signal strength to be viewable. I recall getting it in the low 40s %, and it was completely stuttery, and unwatchable

is there some explanation to what signal strength will make a cetain network watchable? does it have to do with the way each network broadcasts their signal, does every tuner do this differently, with different results?

Your last question first, yes, every tuner model or manufacturer will show different signal strength. These meters are for some general reference, but certainly not a calibated reference. A good calibrated digital signal reference meter costs about 10 times as much as the average TV.

As to why some stations come in beter than others? The are many different flavours of ATSC. 19 i think. Some tuners can decode the simpler types with only 25% signal strength. CBC?
But, if a station broadcasts multiple channels, with varying audio formats, PSIP data and even MetaData, upcoming programs etc., such as the US networks, maybe the tuner needs more signal before it can decipher the info to give you the picture.
Or are some tuners are just plain better at 720 than 1080?

The number of errors determine if reception is stable not signal strength.Multipath reception causes most peoples reception problems.If there is no multipath reception then you can watch a station with a very weak signal.This is seen as ghost and shadows with analog reception.

Hi Rob, can you tell me where you got your pre-amp please? I am looking for a decent one. Thanks.

I've got the antenna up in the attic (I'm a few pounds lighter from the sweat) and with testing it would appear that I'm able to bring in most of the channels I'm interested in at 80% or more.

What I guess I don't understand yet and can't find via search is the actual meaning of those numbers. I'd be interested in both the technical explanation and the anecdotal meaning of the numbers. What is the error tolerance of ATSC? For example:

50% it's not going to work, ever
60% if the stars are aligned, you'll get this but mostly no
70% you'll probably get this station, but it might be flakey on some days
80%+ you're good to go

I ask because I'm going to be doing some antenna tweaking to see if I can bring in Fox WUTV at all and want to know what the lowest average target should be for the other stations. In other words, how much can I degrade the other channels in my quest to bring in WUTV. In the end I will be leaving my antenna fixed in the location that gets me a good usable signal from the most stations.

Thanks!
Pete

Hi Pete, see posts 109-111 in this thread for an explanation of the % values on many ATSC tuners.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. So basically the answer to my question is "Your Mileage May Vary" and it's best to just test reception of my particular stations and my particular tuner to see what the best compromise will be. If I got that wrong, please feel free to correct me.

Thanks again for the help, I'm learning a ton here!

Pete

Basically, unless someone has the exact same tuner in a very similar circumstance as you, the readings on the signal meter are useful just for your own particular benefit and comparison, such as when repeaking the antenna or rotating it.

As Tom.F.1 mentioned, there are signal analysis tools out there but they're priced way up in the professional range and require good knowledge of TV signals to operate properly.

The meters on ATSC tuners actually don't measure signal "strength" but rather the percentage of data packets that arrive cleanly and are thus able to be processed. If your tuner can resolve a picture and sound correctly with only half the data packets arriving properly I'd say that's pretty darned good!

As you say, your results may vary.

Happy to help! :)

EDIT: I've added a post to the OTA Forum Knowledge Base and FAQ about this very topic.

Thanks for that great info, Dale, and if you could I'd suggest posting a warning in DHC's Dell forum about the ATSC tuner in that model.

You should consider that the tuner in your Dell is fubared. All it takes is one cold solder joint. With the Tivo tuner it's easy to call up Dell and talk about the poor reception.

That's a good point. AFAIK almost all the HDTV manufacturers just buy add-on ATSC boards from 2 or 3 suppliers so hopefully its a swappable and warrantied module in Dajad's Dell that is to blame.

Has anyone else updated their Panasonic TH-xxPX60's tuner firmware? I installed the v1.04 last night. It is suppose to fix the losing of digital channels problem which I was having. Here is all it is suppose to fix:

Random lock up condition (All buttons on remote and front panel inoperative, except for Power button)

Macroblock noise with Sencore generator HDTV996

Over the air ATSC channels drop off the channel list; "Channel Not Available" is displayed

"Poor Signal Quality" is displayed after a digital channel is lost (ATSC or Cable without CableCARD)

It installed okay but now I only get about three of the eight digital channels from Detroit I got before. Has anyone else had problems like this?

It turns out that Detroit reception really sucked that night so the next night when I autoscanned everything was good. Just a bad coinsidence.

I've loaded both the v1.04 tunrer firmware update and the v1.25 graphics update successfully. I lost all my picture settings with the graphics update so be sure to write your settings down before you reflash your TV.

Hello,

On my tv (Sony 34xs955), I have a statistics screen for digital stations.

This screen gives me information about the signal's strength/quality, signal to noise information, and an AGC value, given as a percent number .

I'm assuming that this value represent the Automatic Gain Control level in use.

Now... How should I interpret this AGC value?

For me, this value is within only a couple of percent the same on all channels, and normally lies slightly below 20%.

Does that mean that the incoming signal's amplitude needs to be reduced to about 1/5th of its incoming strength in order to be processed?

Is it true that the AGC value gives information about the signal's amplitude, while the signal to noise ration gives information about a signal's purity or cleanliness?

If this is true, then am I right in thinking that pre/distribution amplifiers should have an impact on the AGC value shown?

Thanks!

A percentage number could mean anything.

I'm guessing that it means the AGC is at 20% of it's max gain value. Of course not knowing what it's gain range is that doesn't necessarily tell you anything.

Assuming the AGC ranges from -ve gain (i.e. reducing the signal) to +vs gain (amplifying it) then for all we know 20% could be the unity gain setting, +3db or -3db.

I had no clue what AGC stood for. I just thought it was a completely arbitrary number.

Now that I think of it, I think the lower the AGC% the stronger the signal is to your TV. For instance, if I turn to a channel I know is digital, but too distant to pick up, the AGC is 100%, when the signal strength might be at 27%. Definitely no lock. When I'm on a digital channel I can pick up (CBUT-DT) at 98%, the SNR is 32db and the AGC is at 38%. Same goes for the other digital I can pick up (CIVT-DT), only 95%, 30db and 40% AGC.

There's nothing in the manual that explains what's in the diagnostic mode.