: ATSC Tuners In HDTVs (see Samsung Poll)
2010-10-10, 04:09 PM
Not sure if this is the right thread, but can someone explain the OTA tuner results that are displayed? My TVs only give signal strength, but I think others have much more detailed info on the OTA signal, not sure which brands.
Some info seems self evident, but what are the key numbers/levels to watch for?
Freq. (kHz) 177000 (I think this is just the raw radio channel)
Modulation 8VSB (No idea)
Status Lock (picture should show w/o pixing)
Errors 0 (less is better?)
SNR (db) 17.0 (higher is better?)
AGC (%) 42 (no idea)
Other possible info...?
2010-10-10, 05:03 PM
Freq. (kHz) 177000 (Frequency in KHz - Translates to VHF CH 7)
Modulation 8VSB (8 ary Vestigial SideBand, the Modulation technique used by ATSC)
Status Lock (picture should show w/o pixing, - that's because the channel he's watching has a baseband level MUX problem at the time, if ur referring to JASE88's post in the WNGS thread)
Errors 0 (yep, less is better. Ideally Zero, likely never achieved 100% of the time with weaker signals, what error correction is for)
SNR (db) 17.0 (15.5 dB or so minimum to decode ATSC Signal)
AGC (%) 42 (Automatic Gain Control - is used in any radio receiver to stabilize the IF Levels, and/or baseband signal over a wide range, from barely receiveable to very strong RF signal input to prevent distortion upon strong signals, and to ensure demodulation upon weak signals)
Will vary from chipset to chipset on what's reported, but for the SNR, Signal to Noise Ratio, On my USB Tuner it ranges from 15.0 dB to obtain a lock, to 27 dB.
27 dB SNR, or C/N is very clean. It's probably not worth displaying anything much higher than that.
2010-10-14, 08:53 AM
I have a Toshiba DLP (2004 I believe) in the basement and a Sony LC (KD* model) on the first floor.
The Toshiba tuner is less sensitive IMO as am able to get the eluse ABC channel whereas other in the area have a big problem getting it; on the Sony, using the same antenna and cable, ABC (22.1) does not even register at 10%.
As for the Toshiba though, I am missing sound on 2 channels (CBS 3.1 and TQS 35.1). Tried all audio settings to no avail (sound comes in upstairs). TQS is no big loss but CBS w/ no sound annoys me a bit. Last hope today will be to use the Toshiba optical out to the audio receiver... otherwise, like mentioned above, it might be a firmware problem. I use this TV for gaming primarily, however, im considering replacing it due to this problem.
2010-10-15, 10:58 PM
I also bought a tv brand spanking new. the tv had a faulty tuner in it from day one. the manufacture did not want to replace it under warranty even thou I bought the extra warranty from the store. my Sharp lc52d65u from day one had a defective tuner in it. unable to view any digital station. I had to buy a cm7000 to proof to the repair guy when he was here that the tv was actually defective and not my antenna setup outside. the repair guy did not believe the clarity of OTA vs cable.
oh well I now know that sharp's one year warranty from the day that I purchase it, means nothing. for a the tv to be fix I told the store to refund me the whole amount of the tv and the extra warranty or I would complain to the head office of the store, about honoring an 11 months old tv with the extra 4 year protection warranty(insurance) that I purchase at the time.
the same guy 2 days afterward, called me and told me he got the part and is coming over to change the tuner. tuner switch, problem fix. basically the whole motherboard of the tv.
brand new tv ship and delivered, from the manufacture with a defective tuner. the guy said to me that I was not the first. good thing I challenge them with their bill and extra warranty policy. and the fact that I kept a photocopy of the bill at the time when it was readable, magic ink today on store's bill's easily fades away after a few month. make a hard copy and keep both together somewhere safe, no receipt, no warranty.
2010-10-16, 12:54 AM
Recently bought the above TV, and it is the best tuner I have so far. My two weakest signals are ABC22 (ch 13) and FOX44 (ch 43). It can get ABC 22 as well as the Panasonic DVD recorder I have, and is much better at receiving FOX44 than said DVD recorder. In fact, FOX hardly showed up on my DVD recorder all summer, but for the most part my TV had no problem.
The converter box (Apex DT250A) was worse than either of them. It used to be okay for a few months, but then FOX and ABC became unwatchable.
The only problem is that I can only record or watch ABC on days when the signal is at its lowest, as they interfere with each other.
My only complaint about the TV itself is the lack of guide info beyond what's on now (which is very professionally done with a long description and all, it even supports analog OTA signals), but that's for another thread.
2010-10-18, 06:07 PM
Well talked to Toshiba reguarding no sound on some channels- no help talked to Toshiba recomended service provider in St Thomas -never heard of this problem before. Why does it always happen to me! If I had a dollar for every time I have heard they have never seen that before. Any way enough whining,what I have done is everything the mannual and suggestions on the forum plus reset to factory defaults same thing no sound on six channels. I think the tuner is bad or there is a firmware problem with no solution. The list of channels I get is as follows. NS = no sound
I read through your list of channels and noted that all the 'no sound' problems except 27.2 are on the xx.1 channel which is usually the main HD service with 5.1 Dolby sound. You get audio on some xx.1 channels which suggests that the problem is not linked to the xx.1 position but may be an issue with the Dolby 5.1 decoder in the set. You get sound on xx.2 and xx.3 on channels where xx.1 has no sound. I am making the assumption that the xx.2 and xx.3 channels are stereo except 27.2 and do not require the decoding and downmixing capabilities of the Dolby 5.1 decoder.
If the set has an optical or RCA jack SPDIF output, did you ever try to connect it to an external surround sound receiver capable of taking an SPDIF input and decoding the signal? The SPDIF output may be independent of the internal 5.1 decoder and might work.
2010-11-15, 08:39 PM
The manual indicates it has an ATSC tuner, but before I go out and buy an antenna to hook up to this TV I wanted to ask a silly question.
The back of the TV has coax connectors for Cable and for UHF/VHF. Is connecting a OTA antenna capable of receiving HD stations in the Scarborough area as simple as using the UHF/VHF connector?
2010-11-15, 10:05 PM
Pretty much! - Try a cheapie indoor antenna first - but from what I can tell it does have the tuner.
2010-11-15, 10:08 PM
tinglew you'll also want to read through the following thread to see reports from lots of other people in your area:
ON - Scarborough, Pickering, Ajax, Whitby, Oshawa - OTA (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=36538)
2010-11-29, 08:15 PM
Are the tuners in these HDTV's any good?
2010-11-29, 09:51 PM
I can't say they are the absolute tops, but I have never had a problem with mine (Panasonic G10). It captures every channel I can get on my old set top box, as well as my Hauppage 950q.
2010-11-29, 10:00 PM
I know this is off topic, I have the G25 ( I heard G10 has a rising black issue sorry), but is this normal because at 60% is when I need to have a decent stable antenna signal, under 60% I get pixalation but on another HDTV the picture stays stable at 40% signal. Am I missing something here? or would it be smart to buy a top ATSC HDTV tuner for my HDTV so I might be able to get a lock even on a 30% signal?
2010-12-12, 03:01 PM
I have a 46" Samsung C6300 Series 6 LED TV. The ATSC tuner in it is excellent. I'm in a somewhat weak or fringe area and the tuner is able to lock on to most channels with a signal strength of 70%. Peaking the antenna is painless as the TV tells you a S/N ratio in addition to the regular signal strength bars. Even CBC-HD which is on channel 58 here in Vancouver is tuned at a signal strength of 20-30% with a CM4228HD, which is not designed to receive channels as high as 58 so well. My specific model is the Samsung UN46C6300. Channels that tune at 10-20% signal are watchable, with the occasional audio dropout (but no video issues.)
Unfortunately my Samsung got bit by the bad capacitor problem in the power supply (it's only 5 months old), so I went down to Costco and grabbed a cheapy Vizio 22" LED TV until the Samsung warranty repair guy gets out here to fix it.
The Vizio's ATSC tuner is crap (well, what do you expect from a <$200 TV.)
The antenna hasn't moved - on the channels that I previously had 60-70% signal I now have 20%. CBC is not tuneable at all, with a signal strength of <10% and massive macroblocking making it unwatchable. The Sammy would tune CBC with the odd audio dropout. Stronger stations on the Vizio would get occasional audio dropouts which didn't happen at all on the Sammy. The model # for this TV is M220VA-CA. The picture quality is actually pretty decent on the Vizio, I just wish the tuner was better.
2011-01-11, 03:52 PM
I just picked up an LG 60PK250 set which has an input for an OTA antenna or cable and two optical outputs.
After connecting the OTA antenna to the coaxial antenna input and an optical cable from one of the optical outputs on the TV to my A/V receiver I cannot get any sound at all when the TV volume is turned right down. I was trying to get the surround sound that is broadcast by the TV broadcasters over the air, but it appears that I need an external HD OTA receiver to do that!
I called LG in Mississauga for assistance with getting the sound to my A/V receiver from the TV and the fellow told me that the TV cannot convert the analogue signal coming in off the antenna into digital (after I told him that I have an HD antenna), and that I would need a cable box or a satellite box to convert the signal from analogue to digital. He further stated that what I am getting is analogue TV albeit very clear and 2.1 sound from the TV, but that the cable or satellite box will deliver the surround sound I was looking for!
Of course, I know that is rubbish because the TV does display 1080i video in all its glory and deliver good stereo sound through its own built-in speakers. I have no idea if he even knows what 2.1 sound is, since there is no built in sub-woofer in the TV! Some training these dudes get !!!
Anyhow, what I would like to know is if there is a way to get the sound decoded by the ATSC receiver built into this TV set via the TV's optical outputs, or if the set is crippled in handling the OTA sound when processing it and passing it through to the optical outputs.
I don't know if the set's receiver has surround sound processing capabilities, but it's possible it does not and hence the reason it does not pass sound through its optical outputs as it would be in stereo only (although I do prefer 5 channel stereo to 2 channel stereo).
2011-01-11, 04:39 PM
Here's (http://www.lg.com/us/tv-audio-video/televisions/LG-plasma-tv-60PK250.jsp) the page for your TV on LG's site. Looks like it can decode Dolbly and send digital audio out via optical.
2011-01-11, 10:06 PM
Thanks Dave, that information is also in the owner's manual.
The dude at LG told me that the optical out would be activated as soon as the TV is turned on.
I connected an optical cable between the TV's optical output and the A/V receiver's input and get nothing in the way of sound. I also connected a PBO with its HDMI going to the TV and the PBO's optical output going to the A/V receiver's input (the A/V receiver is several years old and has no HDMI inputs) and that works just fine for surround sound when I select that input for sound at the A/V receiver. When I sleect the other input (the Optical out from the TV) I get no sound regardless of whether the source is the TV's tuner or the PBO!
Looks like I may have a defective TV if the optical out from the TV is supposed to work at all !!!
2011-01-12, 12:06 PM
After connecting the OTA antenna to the coaxial antenna input and an optical cable from one of the optical outputs on the TV to my A/V receiver I cannot get any sound at all when the TV volume is turned right down.
Instead of turning the volume down, try turning the speakers off from the audio menu. I wouldn't have thought the volume control would affect the optical out, but you never know.
2011-01-12, 04:51 PM
Thanks Roger, I just tried turning off the TV speaker and again got no sound with the TV turned on (displaying picture) and selecting the optical input at the A/V receiver coming from the TV. Then I tried disconnecting the PBO to A/V receiver optical cable at the PBO and turning on the PBO to see if the TV would receive the audio via HDMI and pass it through (from another source like the LG guy told me it would), but again got no sound when I selected the correct input at the A/V receiver. It sure looks like an exchange of TVs is in the works for me. This TV was shipped to me right across the country, so I better contact LG to see how they want to handle the exchange.
2011-01-12, 07:49 PM
What TV has a better OTA tuner? LG, Samsung, others?
Well, for a long time I thought it was LG, but something happened today that throws a curve in all the comparisons of different brands.
Is the signal amped or not? If I amp the signal (via CM 3414) off my 4221HD stack, my edge channel (WNYO - RF 49) comes in solid on the LG, but not on the Sammy. However, if I remove the amp, WNYO comes in on the Sammy, but is black on the LG. Go figure!
2011-01-13, 09:45 AM
See if you can send the optical out from your TV as PCM instead of AC3 (or vice-versa) to your receiver and see if it makes a difference.