It may not be a completely fair comparison, but if CFTO is full of ghosts in analog, you can be reasonably sure it won't work for digital. Regardless of power levels, multipath will destroy ATSC reception, and I would suspect that multipath won't change with a move to digital.

- Trip

I do get a lot of ghosts in analog but overall the reception is better than channel 5. But other Toronto UHF analog channels like 19 and 25 also look like crap.

Wayne is your 4221hd pointed at Buffalo or Toronto? Your analog reception might be better than you think.

A lot of people from Scarborough and points east end up going with a dual 4221 solution (one toward T.O. and one toward Buffalo).

It is pointed pretty much at Toronto - at a heading of about 240. According to TVFool the CN Tower is at 233 and Buffalo transmitters are around 160. When I increased the heading slightly to around 250 I did get CFTO somewhat but then I started dropping some of the Buffalo stations - presumably since this heading was now pretty much orthogonal to Buffalo.

I do have a bit of a blockage from a second story extension on my house which is why I have the heading a little above 233.

Wayne,

Your TVFool and mine are identical...

My experience with CM4221 is that I have to move the antenna from one location to another on the roof for best reception (TO and US). Yes, it helps!

I used 10' EMC pipe mask which gave me the flexibility of height adjustment for the antenna.

Just aim the antenna in-between CN tower and Buffalo, rotate the mask 1/8" at a time until signal peak for all stations.

Yes, it does take some time to get everything work out for me.

I was doing that last weekend - it looks like that to get CFTO in properly I need to really point towards TO or even a slightly higher heading -ie more to the west than the southwest. I may play around for one more day and then give up until September after the DTV transition in Canada as I imagine a lot will change at that time, including power levels for DTV transmission.

To be honest the only thing that I would really care about on CFTO is the Olympics and that is still 15 months away. Everything else worth watching is available from the US networks. But it is still nice to get everything. This antenna feeds my HTPC system which already has two HD cable tuners, the OTA is a nice-to-have but isn't that crucial until I want to record more than two HD shows at once which happens pretty rarely.

You get CBC at 100% and not CFTO? There is something not right here because I can get CFTO consistently with an indoor crappy antenna.

May I suggest you try a different tuner like a small Sanyo/Samsung LCD TV?

I have consistent results on three different tuners: a Hauppauge 1850 card, a HD HomeRun2 and one of my TVs - a Sony KDS60A2020.

I get CBC at 100%, Global and CITY at about 80% and I don't get CFTO at all or it might come in and out.

That model of Sony HDTV will give you Signal Strength and an Error Rate gauge too, deep in it's menu system, so the numbers you see on CFTO versus what you see on the others will be helpful for us if you can get them. Typically in strong reception areas the Error Rate on a DTV channel will be zero.

I figured out how to get signal strength on the TV. Note that the TV has an additional cable run vs the PC based tuners. On the TV I get a signal strength of 91 for CBC, about 65 for CITY and Global but for CFTO I get 41-54. The picture goes in and out and I get lots of errors. I get a good signal on all Buffalo stations including Ion which is problematic for many in Toronto. It is unlikely that I will use the TV as a tuner as I prefer using the HTPC based tuners in my SageTV media server to record any desirable content and then distribute that conent via ethernet to my 6 SageTV extenders.

I guess I will try getting back on the roof and adjusting the antenna more. The good thing about using Sage is that I can take a laptop on the roof with me and run the Sage Placeshifter client to see the signal strength.

In Scarborough, with such a strong signal from the CN Tower, if the Error Rate is often reading non-zero then you probably have a very local multipath or interference situation at your end, such as reflections from buildings or objects or harmonics from an electrical device. CFTO should be booming in with zero errors even on a CM4221.

Hello,
I dont have an antenna right now, am wanting to install.
I know Toronto is doable, but which stations would be the
hardest to pull in? Could I get Rochester, and what sort
of antenna or amp do I need for that? Could I get Buffalo
and Hamilton and Toronto on the same antenna as they are in the
same general direction?
Thanks,
Schoolbus

schoolbus, welcome to OTA!

We'll be able to help you a lot better if you go to TVFool and run a report for your location & the height you think you'd be able to mount your antenna. In general you should be able to get Toronto no problem, and even Buffalo pretty well, but without a TVFool report we're basically guessing :)

You can find all the instructions in here, schoolbus: http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=125161

I just got a really cheap $15 outdoor antenna and mounted it on my south/west wall of my 12th floor balcony near the 401 and Kennedy Rd. My reception is amazing and I currently get at all times,
4.1 cbs
5.1 cbc
7.1 nbc
9.1 ctv
11.1 chch
23.1 cwnetwork
25.1 cbc french
26.1 tct
26.2 tct
26.3 tct
36.1 tct
44.1 omni2
57.1 citytv
64.1 omni1
I also sometimes (not often) get
17.1 wnlo
17.2 wnlo
29.1 fox
29.2 music vid
41.1 global
49.1 wnyo
49.2 cooltv
66.1 (sun)
I have to watch tvo (19) in analog, and mostly 41 global as well, but the digital and hd quality is great. Even with my little $15 antenna:D

^ not bad for $15, huh? :cool:

With an investment of 1-2 months of cable/satellite costs I bet you could move the "sometimes get" channels into the "always get" section.

What's the best setup to receive WROC and other Rochester stations consistently. Other posts suggest that it's available on tropo days, but I'd like to receive it throughout the year. Would a Antennas Direct 91XG with a preamp work?

Reliably - you'd need two separate antennae.
One dedicated to Rochester and another for torbuff.
(experiment with the antenna you have - if you point directly at Rochester, can you receive it? If not, you're going to need something better, and two of them if you're combining)

recneps77,

I have a hacked and stacked CM4221HD pointed at South Wales. I don't get WNED reliably, but everything else is very strong including ION.
Is it easy to combine this with a AD91XG pointed at Rochester?

What's the best setup to receive WROC and other Rochester stations consistently. Other posts suggest that it's available on tropo days, but I'd like to receive it throughout the year. Would a Antennas Direct 91XG with a preamp work?

The way to receive them consistently would be to move closer :) Still, I suspect you'll enjoy trying.

The 91XG is a UHF antenna, and the Rochester stations are;
WHEC RF 10 (VHF)
WHAM RF 13 (VHF)
PBS RF 16 (UHF)
WROC RF 45 (UHF)
FOX RF 28 (UHF)

So the 91XG with a top quality RC preamp might give you a sniff (or better) of the UHF stations, but I don't know about reliably. A TVFool Report would be helpful towards a guess.

I pointed a decent VHF antenna (no preamp at that time) directly at Rochester last summer and got not even a hint of a signal.

Don't let me discourage you though - give it a try & let us know.