DarKYiNe,

While moving your antenna around might help, remember that rschieck is using a different antenna than you (4228 vs. 4221HD). That's just one thing that is not equivalent. In fact there is likely not much else that is equivalent between your set-ups. Check out the description here:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=839648&postcount=638
I really suggest you consider a pre-amp.

This is something that always worries me when members compare reception: when it comes to receiving OTA, all the other things are never equal.

Comparing reception with others in your area can give you a great idea as to what gear to try and what stations are available in your area. But there are a lot of variables which makes it nearly impossible to state that two receivers in the same area would have identical gain on the same channels. Use the info as a guide, or as in stampeder's words "general expectation":
From the OTA Knowledge Base & FAQ:
Now we have been thankfully getting great reports and questions from people all over Canada who have access to Digital OTA (and from those who dearly want it but cannot get it!) and now the general expectation of what a person can get is becoming clearer and clearer in most major centres.

cheers

Hi all:

I just picked up an Antennas Direct amplified Lacrosse antenna from here http://www.swiftgamers.com/login.asp?logout=yes, in Markham.

Since I couldn't get to doing the installation today (because of other things going on) I decided to test it to see what the reception would be like where I live.

I disconnected the RG6 cable from my satellite dish next to where the Lacrosse is going and connected that to the Lacrosse, then gave it to my son to hold at ground level aimed roughly towards the CN Tower. I then went inside and connected the other end of the same cable to the power inserter and on to the TV receiver.

Did a scan and was able to get only one HD channel (CBC) with 10 dB amplification. Then I plugged in the power inserter transformer and re-did the scan - this time I got five HD stations (including CityTV which transmits at low power!) with the full 17 dB amplification. When I mount the antenna it will be near the top of the two storey wall, so I expect the signal to be even better, with perhaps some Buffalo stations (if I get lucky).

Now I have a couple of questions. The antenna came with a power inserter for one TV only. It appears to be an indoor one. What I would like to do is feed two TVs with this antenna (one in the basement and the other on the first floor). Since I don't have an easy way to feed the cable between levels once it's inside (because the basement is all finished) I'd like to get a powered splitter to mount outside and then feed the two RG6 cables through the exterior wall (one to each level) with the power cable to the transformer going through the same hole as one of the RG6 cables.

First, are exterior splitters a good idea or are they prone to trouble since they are exposed to the elements?

Second, what kind of amplification would I need to get a good signal at each TV? Since the splitter splits the signal in half, I will no doubt need more amplification, but how much and what noise level? Would I use the power inserter that came with the Lacrosse and add a second or would I replace the one that came with the Lacrosse?

Any help will be appreciated. TIA

quickcurrent

First, are exterior splitters a good idea or are they prone to trouble since they are exposed to the elements?

What do you mean by a 'powered' splitter? A splitter is usually passive and cuts the power in half plus a little extra (around 3.5dB). I think you can use one outdoors, but you should seal it with some sort of compound to protect it from the elements. Also, if your power injector is between your splitter and your tv, you need to make sure that the splitter can pass through the power from the injector up to the antenna. Only one power injector is needed per antenna (not per tv) and it can be located either between the antenna and the splitter, or between the splitter and one of your tv's (as long as the splitter can pass through the power up to the antenna).

Second, what kind of amplification would I need to get a good signal at each TV? Since the splitter splits the signal in half, I will no doubt need more amplification, but how much and what noise level? Would I use the power inserter that came with the Lacrosse and add a second or would I replace the one that came with the Lacrosse?

The antenna already provides 17dB of gain, and the splitter would only introduce around 3.5dB of additional loss, so as long as you don't have an extremely long cable length from your antenna and it's good cable (RG6 rather than RG59), you shouldn't worry about extra gain. The fact that your antenna has a built-in preamp is good and bad. Good because you've already taken care of that step, but bad because we have no idea how well it performs (noise figure) and you probably can't put another preamp after it because you'll overload it. Do you have line of sight to the CN Tower? From the ground to the roof could make a huge difference. Ultimately, most of the forum here agrees to stick with good quality unpowered antennae from companies like Winegard and Channelmaster, and separate preamps (from the same companies). The real test will be when you get it up on the roof!

By powered splitter I was thinking of a powered signal booster with one input and two outputs. This would introduce additional power and I have been wondering if it would cause problems with overloading the amplifier built into the antenna.

The antenna will not be going on the roof, but on the wall just under the roof overhang, about 16-17 feet above the ground. It will not be in a direct line of sight of the tower.

I have to split the signal outside because there is no way of getting the cable running from the basement to the first level without making a mess of the inside walls/ceiling. So if I were to use a splitter right at the antenna and then run separate cables to each TV set, would that work with just one power inserter, say near the basement TV set?

I know there is a diplexer for sat and OTA signals that works with power inserters (the blue diplexers), now I need to find out if there are splitters that also work with power inserters!

I think by 'powered splitter' you're using more of an FTA/satellite product terminology, but basically it's a distribution amplifier. The concern is not overloading the antenna's built-in amp. The concern is overloading the distribution amp with too strong of a signal from the antenna's amplifier output. With 17dB of LNA gain and a 10.8dB gain antenna and only 2 tv's, you shouldn't need a distribution amp at all - it won't buy you anything and may actually degrade your signal quality by introducing additional noise. If you really wanted to try one, you need to have your tvfool.com plot, then take your strongest station received power, add your highest possible antenna gain (10.8dB), add your built-in LNA gain (17dB), and make sure that the number you come up with is lower than the maximum input power spec of the distribution amp.

Regarding the splitter, just a passive one is sufficient. Perhaps others on the forum can confirm since I've yet to use one, but I believe the results of a google search for '2 way splitter 1 port pass dc' will give you what you're looking for. This splitter will pass power up to your antenna amp on one port of the splitter without allowing that power to go back down to other ports. This means you can just have the injector box that came with the antenna at one of your tv's (make sure that that tv is plugged into the "DC Pass" port on the splitter). The antenna's preamp doesn't care where it gets its power from, as long as it's it passed through the splitter it's happy :)

Hope that helps!
Tom

Googling that phrase brings up all sorts of things. I suppose I could try just using one of the old splitters I have laying around from my cable days (I think they may go to 900 MHz only) and if they pass the voltage I should be alright then. If not, I'll have to get a new one probably for frequencies up to 3GHz. Would it matter if it's one port pass or two port pass if I am only using one inserter?

Someone has told me that diplexers work really well to combine the sat and OTA signals outside and then separate them inside to avoid running new cables, but with all the connections that would entail in combination with the splitter, it seems to me that I may be better off running new cables. Any thoughts?

I have run my cables to the basement from my antennas and then combined and split them indoors. That way, if anything needs repair, it can be done inside. Advantageous - especially in winter.

Googling that phrase brings up all sorts of things. I suppose I could try just using one of the old splitters I have laying around from my cable days (I think they may go to 900 MHz only) and if they pass the voltage I should be alright then. If not, I'll have to get a new one probably for frequencies up to 3GHz. Would it matter if it's one port pass or two port pass if I am only using one inserter?I don't know how standard splitters work. If they don't pass power by default, then you have nothing to lose. But if they pass power to all ports by default, you could damage your second tv because the power from the injector will travel up to the antenna but also back down to the 2nd TV where the input is not designed to handle any DC offset. Anyone care to comment on what a cheapie splitter does by default? I'm sure it's in the forums though I don't have the luxury of searching it out at the moment..Someone has told me that diplexers work really well to combine the sat and OTA signals outside and then separate them inside to avoid running new cables, but with all the connections that would entail in combination with the splitter, it seems to me that I may be better off running new cables. Any thoughts?With any combining/splitting devices, you'll always be introducing some additional noise and signal degradation. If you have a lot of margin, it shouldn't be an issue, but if you have weak or hard-to-receive signals, you don't want to add anything that might hurt you further. I assume you plan on keeping your sat in addition to the OTA then? I'd suggest trying your OTA on a dedicated cable with a single TV (no splitters) first to see how robust it is before experimenting with combining/splitting/etc.

tczernec, I have tested the antenna with a single TV as per one of my posts above and got five channels in HD with the antenna held five feet from the ground. Now I've installed the antenna about 3 feet below the roof overhang on the house wall which is two storeys high. I have no doubt that hooking up just one TV now will work beautifully, I might even get Buffalo, which would be a plus. But I'd really like to be able to feed both TVs. And, yes, I'll be keeping satellite as well for channels we don't get over the air.

Sounds like I better find a place that sells splitters with only one port passing the DC then. Thanks for the explanation. I just picked up a 1GHz surge protected IDEAL digital cable splitter at Home Depot, but it doesn't sound like that is going to work then, as it says nothing about passing DC either over one port or two ports! I don't want to ruin the TVs (one is a 50 inch the other a 61 inch). Any idea where I can get one that passes DC over one port only, locally?

tenstu, I did that with cable years ago before finishing my basement, but I can't do that anymore the basement is all finished.

Gotcha on the finished basement.

In my opinion then, you should go back to home depot and get a large grey electrical box, the kind with a sealed, screw on cover, then drill holes in it just large enough for your coax to go through, do the splitting inside, seal up the cover and then silicon closed the holes around the coax. Check a day or two later and re-apply the silicon again around the holes, once the first layer has 'dried'. This should provide you enough protection for the splitter and connection from the elements.

If you're looking to keep satellite as well as OTA on the same cable, I guess you'd be looking for a diplexer with a 1-port DC pass (to combine the OTA and satellite, but allowing the OTA power to feed up to the antenna preamp) followed by a 2-way splitter (again with 1-port DC pass for the antenna preamp)? Does the satellite require a power injector too? If so, I highly doubt you can feed power for both devices up the same cable, especially if they require different voltages. Even at the same voltage, the power injector may not be able to source enough current for both the antenna preamp and the satellite LNB. You might be best calling a specialty shop to see what they have and/or can recommend. You can try the sponsors here (saveandreplay.com) or ask one of the resident installers on the forum (eg. Yaamon). I just don't want to feed you any incorrect information on this since I have limited knowledge in this area!

I'm going to have to find a one port current pass first, then try the splitter installed right at the antenna and run a couple of loose cables through a window, one for each TV. Antennas Direct is sending me a 50 foot RG6 QS for the longer run at no charge (supposedly they supply that in packages they sell directly to the consumer but not in the packages that they sell through dealers!)

Then, once I've tested it that way, if it works well on both TVs, I'll do the permanent installation.

A box is a good idea to seal the connections.

The other option I am looking into is using a good one port pass splitter that is weather resistant and connecting that directly to the antenna, and then attach the cables to the splitter. I could silicone all connections to seal out all moisture. It would be great if I could find a splitter as described above but also with a female IN connector to avoid having to use a short wire length between the antenna (male connector) and the splitter (typically also male connectors:(), kind of like satellite twin and quad LNBs. But, maybe I'm dreaming!

I'm still in the hunt for the right splitter. I'm thinking this one which passes DC current from either port but has built-in diode protection against current pass through and covers all frequencies.
http://www.circuits2u.com/pages/JVI25HFS22DN.htm
If only I could find one in the GTA so I didn't have to order online!

Home Depot has them, I've seen them there.

Which Home Depot? I was at the one in Vaughan but all they had was the one I bought (with spike protection) and an el cheapo that was just basic. I'll try the Home Depot in Richmond Hill tomorrow.

I'm trying to decide on which antenna is better to get US and CAN stations.

I understand that 4228 has longer range (considering Stouffville is further from CN tower/Bufallo) and 4221 has shorter range BUT has a much wider angle to pickup stations that are not aligned in a straight line...

I tried searching for Stouffville in the search and found people east of me (> 15km? in Markham/Uxbridge) that's having good success with 4221... I guess what I'm not sure about is if I get a 4228, will I get more channels (is it worth spending the extra $$ for a 4228) or do will it be the same or a little bit worse than a 4221 since it's angle is not as wide as 4221?

From the corner street of Yonge and Stouffville, I can actually see the CN tower straing south on a clear day... our house is 1 street NW of that corner.

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.

--

Edit: I just saw the latest PDF of the antenna chart - will a 4221 pre amp be better? Also considering any CM antenna I get will be the HD version not the original version... thanks.

I tried searching for Stouffville in the search and found people east of meA search tip: use the Search This Thread tool to the upper right beside Thread Tools and put in the search term "Stouffville" and you'll zero-in on plenty of posts from right in the same town instead of 15km away. ;)

Yaamon has had very good results with CM4221 installs in Stouffville. With one of those up high on the roof with a preamp to keep the signal from it strong you'll have good luck in Stouffville.

That's what I did.. the problem is Stouffville is a street that stretch across multiple towns - Richmond Hill where I am to Markham that's 15km east of me... and both towns are part of this thread.. :)

THanks for your reply - I'm leaning towards doing a cm4221 preamped..

Oh I get it. In that case you need to try other search terms for your area. No harm in trying it 4 or 5 times with different words. You'll do fine with a CM4221 and preamp in Richmond Hill. :)

Actually Stouffville Road doesn't go through Markham at all; it starts in Richmond Hill at Yonge Street and continues until it hits York/Durham Line in east Stouffville. Markham town limits are about 1 to 1/2 km south of Stouffville Rd :) Of course, many things don`t make sense around here, like the fact that most of Markham Road is actually in Toronto :rolleyes:

The separation between CN Tower and Buffalo is only 13 to 18 degrees (depending on Buffalo transmitter chosen) from Yonge/Stouffville Rd, so I don't really think you need a wide beamwidth. But, the new CM4228HD, unless modified/hacked, is barely better than a CM4221HD, so based on others' experiences as stampeder mentioned maybe the 4221HD is the best bet..

Thank you, x4mer. I found one at Home Depot near Hwy7 and Yonge. Just wondering if you've also seen F-71 couplers somewhere, that's a male to male F-type coupler to couple my new splitter directly to the antenna. They must be available somewhere around here but googling only turns them up in the US and I haven't seen them anywhere locally. The popular ones are the female to female, but I need the reverse.