: ON - Vaughan/Richmond Hill//Markham/North of 407 - OTA
2007-11-04, 12:46 PM
I am in Stouffville, just south of main street in the new developments here and I am curious about FTA. A friend of mine who lives closer to the 404 brought his 4228 over and we did some exparimentation with the antenna directly connected to my sharp Aquos display with unsatisfactory results. My suspicion is that we only exparimented with the the antenna at ground floor.
I'd like to mount the antenna in my attic and run the lines down to my basement. I have a cable path so running the lines would be quite simple. Before I make the investment I wanted to see what others experiences in mounting in the attic have been. There is a limitation to size of smallest component as I will need to get it through my access hatch.
What are the experiences of others in Stouffville, what antenna did you use, what pre-amplifier did you use?
2007-11-04, 02:11 PM
Hi Stouffville has great elevation results for ota.
I did a install there Sandale Rd and Main Street on the chimney with excellent results.
Just with a 4221 and a Sony lcd with a built in atsc the customer was able to get all Buffalo and Toronto stations between 85-93% with no preamp.
Other have had good results with a attic install also. With a attic install the chances of getting all Buffalo is 50/50.
2007-11-04, 03:19 PM
It's called OTA not FTA: http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=36394
I live near dufferin and Hwy 7, and my installation goal is similar to yours (antenna in attic and run wire through conduit down to basement and up to family room). I have CM4221 now in attic with reasonably good result (ABC/NBC/CBS solid, PBS solid most of time, Fox marginal) with 100' of wires.
When I had the same antenna in my second floor, I was able to pick up strong Toronto stations but none of Buffalo ones. I assume this is mainly due to the house blocking line of sight.
Stouville is further north from my area but with a better elevation I believe your results should be much better than your experiment with CM4228 in attic.
2007-11-05, 12:15 PM
D.Cypher, use the Search this Thread tool to the upper right and use "Stouffville" as the search term. You'll see how discussions have gone in the past about OTA reception. We have several other DHC members from your area. :)
2007-11-07, 09:51 AM
I got another CM7778 to try and got much more favorable results, meaning I can add splitters and do not lose most of the stations (especially 43.1 PBS stations were cutting out with previous one) so the preamp definitely helps with splitting line and sending the signal to other rooms.
However, one thing remains the same. I'm losing FOX no matter what when pre-amp is attached. All other stations are the same but pre-amp is not helping with my FOX reception. I get 1-2 bars without pre-amp but consistently no bars at all with pre-amp. I figure this is due to the noise being amplified as well and ends up making overall signal quality worse for my HDTV receiver (samsung DTB-H260F). Also, I was hoping to pick up stations like WNYO but my conclusion with pre-amp is that it will not help with stations you're not getting already.
Now, I have some questions to those who are successfully receiving FOX with good signal strength. Does anyone have the antenna in attic and able to receive FOX reliably? I do not understand why i'm having much trouble with FOX, while all other major stations further south look solid and strong (ABC, NBC, CBS, etc). I understand FOX's signal transmission is directional toward south, does this really make much difference?
Also, I wonder if it will help to raise my antenna another 3 feet in attic. It will require a lot more work since I need to position the J arm in the center where there are no beams running across at all.
Another option I'm thinking is trying out CM7777 instead of CM7778. Besides the gain figure, the noise figure is better with CM7777. Would that make much difference at all?
The reason I purchased the pre-amp was to make FOX reception solid, and i do like this channel. If it does not help with FOX, then it is meaningless to me at this point to install the pre-amp.
I appreciate any help or suggestions. I would like to hear from people around my area.
2007-11-07, 03:11 PM
Conix, in your setup especially with a attic install no preamp will make a difference on Fox. You need decent signal strength and you can only get that from mounting the antenna outdoor on the roof with a clear view.
If there is no decent signal strength a preamp can not improve what not there.
The noise rating of a 7778 compared to a 7777/7775 on the uhf side is only .2db this will make no difference in reception. Even if one preamp had the same gain at 23db having .5db more noise would make no difference in reception.
With a attic install you might have to walk around and see if there is any sweet spots for Fox.
2007-11-07, 04:55 PM
Thanks Yaamon for suggestions. Sounds like a bit more "attic" adventures for this weekend. I will need to haul entire setup into the attic for easier experiment I guess.
It's good to hear there's still some hope. :) I would rather give up on FOX than putting the antenna on the roof, though.
So I figure that means I should not necessarily have problems with just FOX only. Is FOX usually the weakest of ABC/NBC/CBS/PBS/FOX?
2007-11-07, 06:56 PM
Fox or Nbc depending on were you are located can be a little difficult.
A attic install reduces signal strength affecting the weaker and more difficult Nbc & Fox, especially if there is other roofs tops or obstructions are in the direction the antenna is pointed.
2007-11-07, 11:05 PM
Am in the process of upgrading an old TV tower. Currently using it for VHF/UHF/FM analog reception. Located in Keswick Ont about 65KM north of the CN tower. Ultimately want to receive digital signals and better VHF reception.
Currently have CM rotor (20+ years old), Radio Shack VHF/UHF deep fringe antenna mounted on a 30ft tower. Thats it. Reception is adequate from Toronto (most days), very strong from Barrie and weak from Hamilton. Thats all I get currently.
Adding 10ft to the tower for a total of 40ft. Want to boost overall performance with the intent to be able to receive digital in about a year (when I can afford a new receiver).
Now for the questions.
1) Should I be looking at two separate antenna (UHF and VHF) or a combo VHF/UHF deep fringe unit?
2) Can I mount two different antenna on the same rotor?
3) Can I use a preamp (CM7777 or CM7778) even though the signal from Barrie is very strong but others are weak?.
4) What is the difference between CM7777 and CM7778 preamps? The specs look very similar to my untrained eye.
5) Should I replace the RG59 coax currently on the tower?
6) Anything else I should consider?
Hoping to get some good advice and direction from the members here. Thanks for your help.
2007-11-08, 07:00 PM
OTAbound I would suggest you use a UHF only preamp as overload problems from CKVR.Winegard makes UHf only preamps that will pass VHF.Replace the RG59 with RG6.Analogs are to go off 2011 so I would add a UHF only antenna only if needed.The Toronto digitals are quite weak right now.
2007-11-11, 08:26 AM
Well, I peeked through ceiling last night to determine what sort of hardware I would need to move the antenna from current position to another, and ended up getting up there and move the antenna around few times in the attic. I raised it up by almost 4 feet and it improves FOX quite a bit!
These are my results with 25', 100', 100' with preamp, and after repositioning antenna (100' + 3 way splitter (results from -3.5db output))
2.1 WGRZ 1080i (6/6/6/7 out of 10)
2.2 WGRZ 480i
4.1 WIVB 1080i (7/7/7/8)
5.1 CBLT 1080i (10/10/10/10)
7.1 WKBW 720p (6/6/6/8)
7.2 WNGS 480i
9.1 CFTO 1080i (8/8/8/8)
23.1 WNLO 1080i (8/8/8/8)
25.1 CBLFT 1080i (10/10/10/10)
26.1 WNYB 480i (2/0/0/0)
29.1 WUTV 720p (4/2/0/3)
29.2 WUTV 480i
43.1 WNED 720p (4/4/4/5)
57.1 CITYTV 1080i (8/8/8/8)
66.3 SUNTV 1080i (10/8/8/8)
I do not really see much difference on most channels. However, improvements on FOX after repositioning antenna is very obvious. I was getting 4-5 bars before adding the splitter. I did not record signal strength of other channels before adding the splitter.
Even without preamp, and wires running as long as 100' or more, I'm getting above channels in 3 rooms now, with attic installation.
I'm not getting the channel from Jamestown or MyTV, but as long as the above are solid, I couldn't be happier.
Thanks again to Yaamon for all the help!
I will post a picture of my install. Is this the right place to do so?
2007-11-11, 10:06 AM
conix, try the indoor 10db amp and add it where it connects at your fuse box area before you split the signal.
It will improve the weaker stations even more.
See ;) I told you to try and position and locate the antenna as high as you can go. :)
How did your friend make out with his install?
2007-11-11, 12:52 PM
I have not tried the 10db distribution amp. I'm worried that it would amplify noise more than the needed signal itself. I am thinking about it though.
This morning I had strange results.:confused: NBC is at full bar (10/10 - normally at 6/10) but lost ABC and FOX got weak again (Better without splitter though). It did not last very long that way but I was surprised that I lost ABC.
Also, I'm getting MyTV in analog but not in digital. Do some digital channels go up and down?
I will observe performance of current setup and think of next steps. Hopefully I won't have to do anything.
2007-11-11, 09:29 PM
Conix, thanks for the clarification, I had heard the term and confused them. How did your attic installation work out?
2007-11-11, 10:00 PM
d.cypher, my Attic installation is almost complete. Yaamon was always right on, so if you're in doubt ask for his opinions.
So far so good, after repositioning the antenna to the highest possible location in my attic, I'm getting more satisfying results. It looks like a decent distribution amp will help with sending the signals to multiple rooms though.
Navigating within attic was the most difficult part. My attic's tallest part is almost over 11'. It looks like workers put enough horizonal beams around to walk around in it without stepping into loose insulation material so I was able to climb up to one of those and install my CM4221 at the highest point possible. This helped my reception problem with FOX significantly.
Although Yaamon and others suggest outdoor install will provide best performance, my attic install performs better than expected, so I'm satisfied.
2007-11-13, 08:05 PM
How did you mount the antenna? I haven't looked into it really, I bought the antenna from Yaamon yesterday and I plan on mounting it this weekend. I'll have the adventure this weekend of climbing in the attic. Did you mount the antenna horizontally or vertically? Post some pictures if you wouldn't mind.
2007-11-13, 08:33 PM
Time to do some more reading. There should be a pamphlet with the antenna you bought (in the box) that gives you the basics.
Then read this: Channel Master's Off-Air Antenna Installation Guide (http://www.pctinternational.com/channelmaster/0612/pdfs/guide_AntennaInstallation.pdf),
Then go to the OTA Equipment & Vendors (http://digitalhome.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=130) subforum here at DHC, pay attention to the OTA Masts, Mounts, Towers, Hardware, Aiming (http://digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=29559) thread.
If you have more questions about installing, please ask them in the Equipment subforum (above).
Good Luck !! :)
I installed the Channel Master 7778 this past weekend. I also tried to repeak the antenna first. At the time, there was very little change in the results after putting in the pre-amp. CBS went from 10-20% up to 20-30% (and sometimes up to 40%). CBS still suffered from pixelation and disappeared entirely at times. Fox and NBC were both around 60-70%.
Everything remained like this until this evening. I turned on CBS and checked the signal strength - it was up to 70%. So I decided to rescan the channels (ignoring the sub channels)
9-1 CFTO HD
44-1 OMNI 2
64-1 OMNI 1
66-3 SUN TV
I've never seen these channels before:
Does anybody know where these channels are coming from? NBC and Fox also seem to have changed - they're signal strength is down to 40-50% and have cut out once in awhile. I'm pretty sure the antenna is securly mounted - I made sure the bolts were tight.
2007-11-13, 09:36 PM
dfex, those channels are from Rochester.
Signal fluctuations with a preamp can be from over load did you try any attenuators?
Hope the connectors were installed properly. Small movement on the antenna from wind does not really affect the reception. Turning it left to right on the pole will.
Behind the shell gas station south west corner did a 4221, no preamp cust gets all Buffalo stations and local off the cn tower. You should not have any reception problems. I have some free time tomm I can pass by let me know.
Was it a attic install or roof?
I'm not using the attenuators at the moment but will try later tonight and post the results.
The CM 4228 is installed on my roof.