typical snapshot: (looks terrible when posted, but just an idea)Balun, nice idea! Can you run it like this to help readability (replaces one white space with several spaces):cat rep-signal.log |sed s/" "/" "g|grep 'WGRZ-HD'| sort -r -k 5and when you post it here just enclose it in CODE tags. :)

Also is your terminal set up in the ISO-8559-1 character set? I'm seeing a few unusual characters in your output. I fixed it by tacking this onto the end of that command line string:cat rep-signal.log |sed s/" "/" "g|grep 'WGRZ-HD'| sort -r -k 5|sed s/Â//g and you could also do a substitute of DEG with ° too to make it look like this:2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:89% SNR:12% Sun Jun 13 23:40:06 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 19°C
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:88% SNR:12% Sun Jun 13 23:10:06 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 19°C
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:88% SNR:12% Mon Jun 14 07:10:05 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 18°C
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:87% SNR:12% Mon Jun 14 03:40:06 EDT 2010 LOCK Mostly Cloudy 18°C
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:89% SNR:12% Mon Jun 14 03:10:06 EDT 2010 LOCK Mostly Cloudy 18°C
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:89% SNR:12% Mon Jun 14 01:40:06 EDT 2010 LOCK Mostly Cloudy 18°C
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:83% SNR:11% Wed Jun 2 19:01:53 EDT 2010 LOCK Rainshower 20°C
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:86% SNR:11% Wed Jun 2 17:46:10 EDT 2010 LOCK Light Rainshower 22°C
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:84% SNR:11% Tue Jun 1 03:14:00 EDT 2010 LOCK Rainshower 19°C
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:80% SNR:11% Thu Jun 3 22:07:29 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 18°C

I think (17°C) is coming from

weather_html="http://text.www.weatheroffice.gc.ca/canada_e.html"
city="toronto"

# check weather PIA airport
weather=$( lynx $weather_html -dump | grep -i $city )
weather=$( echo $weather | cut -c 13- )
echo "weather report: "$weather

the $weather is on the end of the lines I posted and
it changes by day from 17°C to 17°C to 17DEGC
I need to work on that, as the text varies its difficult to isolate the number alone.

I ssh into my box, from a KDE laptop. All commands are remote, my local setting for "konsole" character set just says default. The columns line up nice over the terminal.

sed complains... (I'm not familiar with it)

[user@server test]$ cat rep-signal.log |sed s/" "/" "g|grep 'WGRZ-HD'| sort -r -k 5
reply is
sed: -e expression #1, char 8: unterminated `s' command


WIVB-HD is like riding the waves ~~~;)

[user@server test]$ cat rep-signal.log |grep 'WIVB-HD'| grep 'Jun 14' | sort -k 9
4.1 WIVB-HD chan:39 SIG:76% SNR:10% Mon Jun 14 04:10:09 EDT 2010 LOCK Mostly Cloudy 17DEGC
4.1 WIVB-HD chan:39 SIG:81% SNR:11% Mon Jun 14 04:40:10 EDT 2010 LOCK Mostly Cloudy 17DEGC
4.1 WIVB-HD chan:39 SIG:52% SNR:07% Mon Jun 14 11:10:10 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 22DEGC
~snip~
4.1 WIVB-HD chan:39 SIG:38% SNR:05% Mon Jun 14 17:10:10 EDT 2010 LOCK Partly Cloudy 24DEGC
4.1 WIVB-HD chan:39 SIG:19% SNR:02% Mon Jun 14 17:40:09 EDT 2010 LOCK Partly Cloudy 24DEGC
4.1 WIVB-HD chan:39 SIG:49% SNR:06% Mon Jun 14 18:10:09 EDT 2010 LOCK Mostly Cloudy 24DEGC
4.1 WIVB-HD chan:39 SIG:53% SNR:07% Mon Jun 14 19:10:10 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 23DEGC
4.1 WIVB-HD chan:39 SIG:28% SNR:03% Mon Jun 14 19:40:09 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 23DEGC
4.1 WIVB-HD chan:39 SIG:62% SNR:08% Mon Jun 14 20:40:10 EDT 2010 LOCK Mostly Cloudy 22DEGC
4.1 WIVB-HD chan:39 SIG:50% SNR:06% Mon Jun 14 21:10:09 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 21DEGC
4.1 WIVB-HD chan:39 SIG:58% SNR:07% Mon Jun 14 21:40:10 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 21DEGC
4.1 WIVB-HD chan:39 SIG:27% SNR:03% Mon Jun 14 22:10:09 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 20DEGC
4.1 WIVB-HD chan:39 SIG:22% SNR:03% Mon Jun 14 22:40:10 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 20DEGC
4.1 WIVB-HD chan:39 SIG:43% SNR:05% Mon Jun 14 23:10:09 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 19DEGC
4.1 WIVB-HD chan:39 SIG:39% SNR:05% Mon Jun 14 23:40:09 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 19DEGC


WGRZ:

[dave@elle test]$ cat rep-signal.log |grep 'WGRZ-HD'| grep 'Jun 14' | sort -k 9
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:70% SNR:09% Mon Jun 14 01:10:06 EDT 2010 LOCK Mostly Cloudy 18DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:89% SNR:12% Mon Jun 14 01:40:06 EDT 2010 LOCK Mostly Cloudy 18DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:87% SNR:11% Mon Jun 14 02:10:07 EDT 2010 LOCK Mostly Cloudy 17DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:84% SNR:11% Mon Jun 14 02:40:05 EDT 2010 LOCK Mostly Cloudy 17DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:89% SNR:12% Mon Jun 14 03:10:06 EDT 2010 LOCK Mostly Cloudy 18DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:87% SNR:12% Mon Jun 14 03:40:06 EDT 2010 LOCK Mostly Cloudy 18DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:72% SNR:09% Mon Jun 14 04:10:05 EDT 2010 LOCK Mostly Cloudy 17DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:81% SNR:11% Mon Jun 14 04:40:06 EDT 2010 LOCK Mostly Cloudy 17DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:86% SNR:11% Mon Jun 14 05:10:06 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 18DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:86% SNR:11% Mon Jun 14 05:40:06 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 18DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:86% SNR:11% Mon Jun 14 06:10:05 EDT 2010 LOCK Light Rainshower 18DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:86% SNR:11% Mon Jun 14 06:40:06 EDT 2010 LOCK Light Rainshower 18DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:88% SNR:12% Mon Jun 14 07:10:05 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 18DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:87% SNR:11% Mon Jun 14 07:40:06 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 18DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:86% SNR:11% Mon Jun 14 08:10:05 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 19DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:82% SNR:11% Mon Jun 14 08:40:07 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 19DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:75% SNR:10% Mon Jun 14 09:10:05 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 20DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:75% SNR:10% Mon Jun 14 09:40:05 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 20DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:75% SNR:10% Mon Jun 14 10:10:06 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 21DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:83% SNR:11% Mon Jun 14 10:40:05 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 21DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:66% SNR:09% Mon Jun 14 11:10:06 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 22DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:75% SNR:10% Mon Jun 14 11:40:05 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 22DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:81% SNR:11% Mon Jun 14 12:10:06 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 22DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:82% SNR:11% Mon Jun 14 12:40:05 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 22DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:79% SNR:10% Mon Jun 14 13:10:08 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 23DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:72% SNR:09% Mon Jun 14 13:40:06 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 23DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:76% SNR:10% Mon Jun 14 14:40:06 EDT 2010 LOCK Mostly Cloudy 24DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:75% SNR:10% Mon Jun 14 15:10:05 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 24DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:71% SNR:09% Mon Jun 14 15:40:06 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 24DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:58% SNR:08% Mon Jun 14 17:10:06 EDT 2010 LOCK Partly Cloudy 24DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:61% SNR:08% Mon Jun 14 17:40:05 EDT 2010 LOCK Partly Cloudy 24DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:61% SNR:08% Mon Jun 14 18:10:05 EDT 2010 LOCK Mostly Cloudy 24DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:58% SNR:07% Mon Jun 14 19:10:06 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 23DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:60% SNR:08% Mon Jun 14 19:40:05 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 23DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:70% SNR:09% Mon Jun 14 20:40:06 EDT 2010 LOCK Mostly Cloudy 22DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:44% SNR:06% Mon Jun 14 21:10:05 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 21DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:54% SNR:07% Mon Jun 14 21:40:06 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 21DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:67% SNR:09% Mon Jun 14 22:10:05 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 20DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:63% SNR:08% Mon Jun 14 22:40:06 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 20DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:77% SNR:10% Mon Jun 14 23:10:05 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 19DEGC
2.1 WGRZ-HD chan:33 SIG:77% SNR:10% Mon Jun 14 23:40:05 EDT 2010 LOCK Cloudy 19DEGC

Typo on my part. Sorry, there should be a / ahead of the g in the sed string:sed s/foo/bar/gThe syntax is: stream editor substitute the string foo with the string bar globally. In the case of my string we're substituting one white space with three. You can pipe through sed as many times as you logically can, or there are lots of scripting tricks to invoke sed as well. Try this one too: sed s/DEG/°/g

Anyway, we're getting way off topic here. :)

That's some really interesting stuff you have there Balun. I could use something like that. Then I can post realtime results for WGRZ to better illustrate the crap I am getting from that station.

Back to my original question. Do you think tilting Antenna 1 (Buffalo) upwards help in getting WGRZ? That strange multipath effect that you described ota_canuck doesn't seem to be affecting other Buffalo stations, and not WNYO which is at a similar position (higher 4221HD gain at 49 may account for that though).

And I'm still not sure if it's just signal bending downwards due to 1edge diffraction (better reception lower?), or if it is indeed multipath (though big fluctuations may make me lean towards multipath, at this point I'm not ruling anything out).

As well, will the tilt reduce interference from the 2 antenna patterns? How would I achieve this tilt when mounted on a pole?

I'm thinking of rigging some hardware to tilt my antenna as well. Is multi-path bad or worse at night?

The signal logger has been running for a couple of nights now. What I did not expect to see is WGRZ and WIVB dropping out at different times overnight between the hours of 1 to 5 AM. Local weather does not seem to make a difference, but signals seem to be slightly worse when sky is cloudy. With little data its early to say. It may be bad Buffalo weather which I'm still not tracking. All this time I was thinking the bright sunshine causes the most interference, now I'm not so sure.

I would be happy to post the script in a new thread if anyone is interested. When I get time I may rewrite it for the HDHomeRun tuner. Its a Linux BASH script, I'm not sure there many Linux people here. It would be good to compare results with others. Posting the reports would fill a thread full of junk real fast however. Graphing would help.

Thanks for the tips stampeder.

The only weather variable I've been able to consistently link to reception results is temperature. And even then, temperature doesn't always appear to be a factor (refer to the extraordinary tropo event last January).

Having said that, we do live in a region where weather can vary dramatically even over short distances, and over short periods of time. Buffalo can be getting a signficant snow fall, while just across the border it's sunny and pleasant.

Hookay. I think I've come close to nailing it.

I moved antenna 2 back underneath antenna 1. They are now stacked on top of each other, pointed at WGRZ.

The whole combining thing was too much for WNED and WUTV so I took the 10-15 hit on the Toronto stations to get all my Buffalos stable again.

I also mast mounted my 7778 again, and this time it doesn't seem to be overloading!

Here are the current results.

WGRZ 40-60* (still dropping out, but less often)
WIVB 76-84
CBLT 58-65
WKBW 78-84
CFTO 58-62 (no more erratic behaviour)
CHCH 55-63
WNED 75-79
WNLO 71-79
CBLFT 64-69
WNYB 72-76 (stack really helped this one!)
WUTV 74-79
CITS 45-53 (no more erratic behaviour)
CIII 55-65
CJMT 44-50 (no more erratic behaviour)
WNYO 82-84
WPXJ 43-60 (stable lock so far)
CITY 55-58
CFMT 58-64
CKXT 51-57

CICA analog pretty garbage again. But you know what? If they can't bother to make the switch to digital like everyone else, then I'm not going to lose sleep that I can't get their signal properly. I'm not going to combine antennas and introduce more complications just because of them. I can still lock to all my other Toronto digitals even if they are weak-ish/weaker.

I suspect either a crap connection, or multipath hampering WGRZ. How would I tilt my stack if it's on a pole?

Considering the tropo conditions in your area today, I would wait before saying there is no more eratic behavior, signal levels could be higher than usual today...

o.O

The erratic behaviour I described are for my local Toronto channels. They're almost never affected by tropo. Actually 50-60 for Toronto is quite low for my location, but is expected considering Toronto is coming in on the side lobes (null zone), it's probably costing my toronto channels a good 30-40 db in loss prone to multipath. I put more value on distant Buffalo channels though, and post-2011 Toronto or Hamilton will no longer be an issue.

Asides from ION (which is regular for me at this time of year), I haven't noticed anything unusual in my RF lineup. Buffalo at normal, Toronto what I expect....

Perhaps tonight?
But you're right, only time will tell......

Sorry for triple posting but another update.

23/26 of my channels are now very stable with a set of stacked 4221HDs (semi-hacked) on 30 foot tower. Joined with equal lengths of 3ft RG6 into CM 3012 splitter.

Can you guess what channel isn't working properly?

Moved 7778 amp back upstream so it's now only 3 feet from the splitter (where pre-amps should be!) 40 feet downlead, cable joiner, than 100 feet into the TV.

WGRZ is bouncing somewhere between 38-65, usually more stable as the night progresses (but still quite weak). During the day it averages around 43-45. (The lock threshold is around 45 I think for my Sharp) I can watch it for like 5 minutes, then it breaks up. Then poof, nothing. Then I surf the channels, and 10 minutes I come back it's there again, then not. Very, very bouncy daytime. At night it's usually a bit stronger/stable around 50-55. Most of the time it's just shy of locking. I don't even want to know what it will be like in the winter yet.

Now when I thought I got it figured out, I elimnated 100 feet of RG6 and moved the power into the basement (where the preamp used to be), hooking it to the Artec converter box that I had the clone attached to.

WGRZ was MUCH more stable around 65% (It didn't drop out once), although some Toronto channels were inexplicably weaker. So why is that? Is it just tuner discrepancies? You lose some, you gain some? Different metering systems? The Sharp and Artec work both on percentages, though the Artec only needs 33%.

I highly much doubt my amp is overloading now that VHF is seperated, and I have my side lobes onto Toronto and Hamilton (30-40db losses).

The mystery deepens, but that 100 feet cable I only bought a few months ago. It's not a dollar store special. Got it at TechDirect (sorry if I was supposed to keep retailer names out of this) downtown for about 10 bucks (about half price of what equal length would cost at S&R).

Frustrating. I almost give up lol. I've thrown all OTA theory pretty much out of the window with this setup concering WGRZ.

Any feedback as to next steps? Or should I hang my towel and call it a day?

To me, this is the best time of the year to tune the system. I'm watching channel 2 WGRZ and 4 WIVB both falling below lock level almost daily. CFTO 9.1 is weakening to well below usable level at times. Both of my antennas have not moved since last fall. I need to clean things up on the system such as improving the grounding, shortening cables to maybe gain a dB or two. I finally bought one of those F-connector crimpers to take the fear out of cutting RG-6. I will stack another DB9 over my Buffalo DB9 in a few weeks.

The signals will improve, when the TV season starts up again this fall.

Has anyone tried the antenna tilt up tweak, and did it help?

Little Infinity the only thing you can do is move your antenna up/down sideways while someone watches WGRZ and find the sweet spot for best signal.A Yagi like XG 91 may produce better results from Buffalo but probably worse from Toronto.You should have near 100 % signal on most Buffalo stations with the antenna pointing at Buffalo.

Hmm. Maybe either I have defective baluns, or something else is going on. I DID notice that the whiskers of my 4221s are not aligned parrallel to my reflector for some reason.

Right now I have 75-84% on all my Buffalo stations except WGRZ. ION around 50-70. Even WNYB with 1edge and a measly 9.9 NM very strong at around 70. Around 50-65 on Toronto and Hamilton. Which I deem more than acceptable cause I only need 45 for a lock. 55 and 15 analog from that direction are very watchable with only some snow. 56 analog shopping channel snowy. The other analogs from Hamilton and Toronto are very ghosty/wobbly which is expected. My tvfool for the gazillionth time.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9fbe3a5ef62369

Derry/Winston churchill also has an elevation advantage in terms that you can probably clear the Niagara enscarpment and get better signals? I still have LOS to Buffalo except 33 and 49 (1edge, but decent NM between 13-14 dB), the latter comes in easily due to higher gain of antenna. Still don't get why WGRZ is so problematic. Also depends. What tuner are you using? (Maybe it measures differently?) I find it hard to believe it is even theoretically possible to get a 100% signal on ANY channel. Signal quality yes, but perfect strength? I don't even get 100% from Toronto when aimed that way. The highest number my Sharp Aquos has ever displayed was 86%. I could be wrong. What's your setup like if I may ask politely?

Also how would I communicate when I'm dangling off a 30 foot tower? :S

To my thinking ghosty/wobbly in analog indicates multipath sources. Whereas with digital reception, multipath gives your tuner a scrambled mix of information, doubled ghostly information, the tuner can't decide which parts of that doubled information to use, hence the wild fluctuations on the signal meter. Your signal meter probably is showing the quality [useable program content] of the reception rather than signal strengths.

Solutions: move your tower, or move those refinery storage tanks.

Move the tanks!

HAH you crack me up dude :)

I thought the ghosting was due to the side lobes more than multipath, but you might be right.

Perhaps a chimney mount will do me better? I always suspected multipath, but again there's just so much mystery. Is it possible that even aimed in the right direction, that multipath can affect just that one channel? I would have half-expected the others (WKBW, WIVB, WNYO) to go crazy too, but they ain't.

I have 2 Yagis ,one for each city and All the Buffalo are 100% except WGRZ varies from 86% to usually 92 to 100.Ion varies all the time and disappears in winter.Toronto CBLT,CFTO,OMNIS 100% while the others are about 86% and weakest is city 71%.Analogs all ghost free.CHCH,CTS about 90%

Also how would I communicate when I'm dangling off a 30 foot tower? :S

My Cell phone, set to speakerphone and clipped to my harness, works just fine when I'm dangling from a 30 ft tower. :)

I've never seen anyone have such a hard time recieving signals, who kept on trying, and trying and trying.
Most people give up at some point, so I'm really impressed that you keep at it. I like the move the tanks idea.

Yeah I'm a perfectionist :X
Don't get me started :P
It's very frustrating to try and troubleshoot a problem that can have multiple causes (sometimes causes that can even occur simultaneously). My setup is not very flexible to major changes right now, and I have been working at this for almost a year. I am getting quite exhausted. And trust me nothing is even more frustrating when I hear of people in my area sticking a clone in the attic and picking up something that I have to this day been struggling with using an outdoor and (theoretically) very optimal setup for fringe-OTA.

Rob, that's a nice setup. Are both the yagis the same? What make/model are they? And what's the tuner? I assume you're getting Hamilton from the back of your Toronto yagi? Very clever of you to combine the two like that if so, because they are less likely to interfere. Where are they setup? How far are they separated?

Reverse splitter or A-B switch?

ota_canuck, I'd love to move my antenna tower but seeing as the tower is cemented in 10 bags of concrete I highly doubt that will happen....but if it IS multipath, I need to kill this problem quickly. How would I achieve upwards tilt if my antenna is on a pole?

Never give up until all options have been tried- different antennas, better coax, grounding, amplification, filter traps, getting antenna higher, different tuners- have all these options been tried?

Still lots to try I think... Keep pluging.

Took me well over a year before I got my final channel allotment- and still I am constantly tweaking- currently working on better grounding.

I'm done raising the antenna. Any more and the pole will fall right off my tower :P This is as high as I can go.

What type of coax is better than RG6? I would think quad shield but I don't have alot of electrical interference. There is a fuse box where the downlead cable meets the cable in my house (40 feet from antenna, this was where the preamp was until I moved it back up to the antenna), but I'm not sure if this causes a problem. I would expect those things to be well shielded regardless.

Grounding: A bit iffy, but I have no clue how this can affect signal strength. I want to fix this but I don't know how to do it properly, or if I even have the proper tools to do so.

Traps: Now this is something new actually! :)
I might have overload problems from Toronto VHF analogs and CHCH, but I seprated the inputs and put almost a null in both directions. FM maybe? I don't think CM4221 can pick up FM though. I thought using attenuation combined with preamp is a no-no?

The other issue is that I'm afraid I am starting to annoy you guys with my bombardment of questions lately. :S