I have faith on CM4221...From my location, I am able to use one CM4221 to hit all Hamilton/Toronto/Buffalo channels with stable receptions all year other than bad weather.

You are so close to TO and Hamilton, the two antennas approach will work. Assuming you have LOS, one CM4221 will pick up Buffalo/Hamilton stations easily. The TO is easy, even a 2 bay will do well given your proximity (< 15 miles) to CN tower.

Also keep in mind stable HD signal requires LOS. For example, I move antenna location to various spot on my roof for good reception for all channels, The result - no pre-amp is required.

Little Infinity your going to get ghosting on the Toronto analogs with the antenna pointed at Buffalo.Just mount a second antenna at Toronto which should be okay for Hamilton from the back and run separate cable all the way down and then you can use an A/B switch or join them together.A rotor is a good choice too.

EDIT: CFTO is suffering some serious signal fluctuations that are not present in any other station. In the span of 30 seconds, I had the signal tank from 65 to 7%, theb back to 35, then 40, then pixelating badly, then tanking, then going back up. It is ONLY this channel????

The ghosting wasn't as bad. The picture is wobbling terribly now on analog TVO. I suspect something more than just bad aim (overload?). A paperclip could pull this better.

After doing some sample signal checks in the past few days, I notice reception alot better now, very good and stable for the most part, though some stations still concern me, and they seem to be anomalies. I find the Buffalos saw some improvement overall (especially WNYB), but Toronto and Hamilton overall suffered a net loss. Could be the wider reflector of the 4221HD? I've been getting everything without drops for the last 2 days now except ION.

WGRZ - 40-50 (better than the clone, but still too low).
CKVR - Snow but watchable
WIVB 65-75 (no change from clone)
CBLT 55-65 (loss 10-15)
WKBW 80-85 (gain 5-10)
CFTO 45-55 (loss 15-20, no dropouts but troubling)
CHCH 50-55 (loss 10)
WNED 60-70 (loss 5)
CICA (unwatchable)
WNLO 60-65 (loss 5)
CBLFT 70-75 (gain 10)
WNYB 60-70 (gain 15)
WUTV 70-75 (gain 20)
CITS 50-60 (gain 10)
CIII 45-50 (loss 5-10)
CJMT 55-60 (loss 20)
WNYO 80-85 (no change)
WPXJ 15-30 (gain 10, could be nicer weather though)
CITY 55-60 (loss 5)
CFMT 60-65 (loss 5)
CKXT 50 (loss 10)

So overall better than clone, but there are some inexplicable losses at random channels. I suspect something else could be the issue. My current setup is as follows. Will stack if I run out of options.

4221HD antenna (balun flip/no caps) -> 5ft RG6 -> connector -> 30ft RG6 -> connector -> 5ft RG59 (really old joiner cable into house, cannot change this as it is stuck in concrete) -> 7778 preamp -> 100ft RG6 -> power supply -> 4ft RG6 -> TV

If I move the preamp outside just 5 more feet, reception tanks all over the place. No preamp reception is crappy. Could analog 5 be overloading?

Sorry for my long posts again, just lots of weird stuff going on, don't know how to explain in a shorter post :/

Regarding the analogues here are some troubleshooting tips for determining what is going on:

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=105230

If I move the preamp outside just 5 more feet, reception tanks all over the place. No preamp reception is crappy. Could analog 5 be overloading?

This could be your problem. Using the preamp indoors, closer to the TV's could be amplifying line noise generated within the RG59 downlead or over-loading your tuner. I would suggest nixxing the preamp idea all-together and try using just a good distribution amp or drop amp instead.

Tried the clone on same cable, and things were fine (I mean generally), overall performance is weaker than the 4221HD, but I see no anomalies on TVO or CFTO-HD. The 7778 amp made less difference with the clone, but on the 4221HD it made a huge difference.

I think the issue is much more complicated, but to keep things simple this is what it boils down to, with possible causes in brackets. As I said, no stacking until I figure out what's going on. I'm gonna keep ION out of the picture.

4221HD (no amp)= decent reception of some channels in TO/BUF, but garbage on others. very random. (line loss or cabling?).

4221HD + 7778 = good reception of buffalo, decent toronto/hamilton, with aforementioned anomalies (overload or cabling?).

clone (no amp)= okay reception on most channels, very poor on the weaker hamilton/torontos. no anomalies (just crap design + line loss).

clone + 7778 = decent reception of all channels, but sub-par with the 4221HD, no anomalies, issues with WGRZ (crap design).

Got your PM! I'll give you some comment on the board, so that others can add some input.

Amplification issues:?
Preamps should normally be used as close the antenna as possible, [sometimes it is more convenient to attach the preamp 5ft down the antenna mast] but not indoors where it is closer to the tuner's. A preamp is designed to push the peak available signal recieved at the antenna down through the downlead. If you want to amplify from within the house, you should get a good indoor amp/aka:distribution amp/aka:booster/aka:drop amp.

Splitters:?
A bad splitter anywhere in the cabling mix [before or after the amp or power inserter] could also cause a more noticable problem with the stronger Channel Master antenna's raw gain than it does with the weaker clone antenna's raw gain. [that inline glitch has snagged me many times]

Cabling connections:?
Any stray or frayed cable braid shielding that may be too close to the cable core wire can cause bleeding or back feeding of either voltage or signals. If you have a voltage leak getting back to your tuner, your tuner could become damaged. Remember that a poor [or a non-contact connection] of the core wire or the shield braid can still deliver a RF signal yet not deliver sufficient voltage to power a preamp properly.

Multi-path issues:?
Another scenerio is that possibly the 4221HD has a wider beamwidth and has more raw gain than the clone. Your antenna could simply be in a bad spot whereas the clone was too weak to pick up some reflected signals [multi-path signals reflecting from trees, buildings, water, etc], but the stronger 4221HD is now picking these reflections and therefore messing with the capability of your tuner's ability to deal with these mult-path issues. If you have many reflection sources, then you'll have to experiment with antenna mounting locations to avoid these unwanted signal reflections.

Multipath example: The antenna I have mounted on my shop can't be more than 25ft up or I lose Erie stations due to multi-path signals reflecting from my neighbours sat-dish. We tested out this theory by throwing a cardboard box over my neighbour's sat-dish one night and low&behold, Erie was booming in at 100%. :p

The roofing material on the houses here can't reflect anything. I have a clear shot at the lake (a.k.a I can see the lake from my house), unless it is the lake itself reflecting these signals, which I highly doubt. Most of the houses here are well over 40 years old. I can't really experiment with mounting because it's on a tower. I guess I could slide the pole up/down?

And how can I tell if my tuner is damaged, or if there is a voltage leak/bleeding/back feeding?

I removed the 5ft RG59 and moved part of the 50ft RG6 inside, and it barely made any difference. CFTO is stable at 53-55, CHCH got +5, Global got +5, but now CITS and CJMT are the ones going crazy. For a station so close to me, I see no reason why the signal sould be fluctuating at a range of 30-40% every few seconds. Most of the other Torontos are still too weak for my liking CBLFT the strongest, though I haven't had any dropouts of pixelation.

You betcha !

"the lake itself reflecting these signals"

Lake reflections can be deadly for multipath problems. Even a pine tree waving in the breeze can scramble signals.

Your report of 30-40% fluctuating signals is a good sign of multipath problems and it seems to be happening with multiple channels. Instead of relying on the single aimed antennas back door for local channels, you should have 2 antennas facing opposite each other. One to TO and one to Buffalo. That way the good strong LOS signals from Toronto will overpower and dominate those reflected signals. Try mounting the Toronto 4221antenna 25" below the Buffalo 4221 antenna on the same mast.

I see. In my locations, ALL of my signals (even Toronto) actually have to cross the lake to get to my location. WNYB has to cross TWO lakes to get here, and I'm getting it quite well.

Anyways, no A-B switch needed? Just combine with 2 cables of same length with a splitter in reverse, much like stacking? (Stacking won't help will it?)

And I'll be able to get Hamilton from the back of the TO 4221HD? Buffalo won't be impacted in any ways will it?

I can see from your other posts you live in a complicated area yourself :P

PS: I still don't know how to tell if my tuner is damaged, those voltage leaks/back feeding is occuring?

Yes,.. my market is a multi-path nighmare. I resolved my problem by developing a low gain/bi-directional antenna that resists the temptations of many signal reflections in this area. The Stealth Hawk antenna is low gain, and then I push what it recieves down the cabling with a G212 30dB pre-amp. This low gain antenna does not seem to be capable of recieving the reflected signals. It seems that the higher the antenna's raw gain, the more chances of multi-path and other stray interferences. High antenna raw gain plus a pre-amp doulbles your troubles.

Note: This low gain antenna solution works specific in my area and may not be a suitable solution for all multipath issues in all other locations. Possible this is why your low gain clone was better for your area than the 4221"s. Basically, multipath is a crap shoot determined by trees, buildings, hills, angles of roofing materials, etc.

Can I mount the antenna to the side of my tower? I don't think my pole has enough room for 25 inches of separation. I assume you mean the reflectors are 25' apart?

Yes you can mount it to one of the tower legs, as long as there are no desired station(s) behind the antenna that you might normally want to catch on its back lobe. The tower will take away much of that rearward signal from that antenna.

Agh. That stinks bollocks.

The TO antenna I was *considering* mounting as per ota_canuck's suggestion was also to pull Hamilton from the rear (almost 180 degrees apart from Toronto, how lovely), hopefully killing off multipath issues common to attempting to recieve signals off side lobes, like I have been for ages.

Just how much signal would I be sacrificing?

little-infinity,

4221HD's are mounted with only one bracket at the center of the antenna, so only half of the top antenna's height is using up the mast's length when you bracket the top Buffalo antenna at the very tip of the mast. Assuming you have a 5ft mast length, then the other lower Toronto antenna can be mounted at the lowest possible point on the same mast. It could end up being 20" or 30" separation between the reflectors. When you aim ganged antennas at right angles [90° or 180°], the separation distance between the two antennas is usually not quite as critical as it is if you were aiming at 20° or70° angles.

I'll do it then :)

I failed to mention though there is a set of power lines that run just behind my backyard. They go along the train line that runs from the Petro Canada refinery to the Lakeshore rail corridor. They are in between the antenna, and Toronto.

Don't worry about the safety though, the antenna and power lines are far enough from each other not to cause any problems.

I'm more concerned that perhaps this could be muddling with my Toronto signals/causing multipath?

I thought the Petro Canada refinery was supposed to be decommisioned 25 years ago :confused: Those beautiful refinery's storage tanks could be one great big source of your signal reflections. I hope your antennas will be pointing outside of the antenna's LOS/beamwidth range of those tanks.

I used to live at nearly your exact location. Those wires should be fine as long as they have been well maintained over the years. If there were some transformers arching or relays [switching transformers] involved, then you could get some audio mild popping effects occaisionally.

The 2x4221 set up may do the trick. It's worth a try, let us know if it helps your situation.

Really, the storage tanks could cause issues? They're right in between me and Buffalo, but I never have a problem with Buffalo (except stupid WGRZ, thanks for having your tower behind a giant hill..) I got good enough height to clear those obstacles, and as I said I have a clear view of the lake when I climb the tower. Unless of course, toronto signals also bounce off those storage tanks. If so, holy moly I have a mess to deal with :P

I'll do the 2-antenna solution. I pray Buffalo will not suffer from putting the two 4221HDs 90 degrees apart.

Really, the storage tanks could cause issues?
Absolutely. They're big, and metal.

I've even read reports here from users experiencing issues with hydro wind mills.

I guess they could, though seeing as they're right between me and Buffalo, I'm surprised I see no impact on my strong Buffalo stations. Except WGRZ, it's 1edge, could it be more prone to multi path? Could this be why it has been problematic constantly?

I turned off the VHF on my 7778 and noticed that 5, 9, and 11 are still there! Snowier but there. Is this normal? I thought it was supposed to block ALL VHF?

CICA 19 continues to be garbage, with 36-1 and 44-1 going crazy. Taking out the VHF improved CIII to 60, CKXT to 60, and CFMT to 70. Rest no change, CFTO more stable now than before at 60 (not dropping out anymore).