http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/6857/radarall.png

Already posted it like 3 posts above. ;)

TVFools looking pretty nice, lots of LOS and green/yellow.

It's looking a bit edgy for WGRZ, but WNYO i get perfectly fine with LESS db. I know I should take TVFool with a grain of salt, but the differences shouldn't be so drastic.

WNYO with 85%, WGRZ only 30???

(You may have already thought of these ideas, if so, my apologies)

I was just trying to see if you had any co-, or adjacent-channel interference for WGRZ, but it looks OK.

I did notice your height is not bad, but every foot higher is better (usually).

A few more things:
Are you joining antennas? This could create signal loss.
Are you using a rotor? WGRZ may need to be re-aimed periodically.
What antenna are you using? Might be better to use a YAGI- great for high signal areas- 91XG one of the best for channel 33- gain of 14 dbi (ref., HDTVPrimer)

No I'm not joining antennas, I have 2 4bays mounted up there, but one has been disconnected, and has been for some time. I was wondering if a useless antenna could actually be causing the interference? 32 WNLO is adjacent (and very strong) but if that was the case, it would cause everyone issues.

Actually I increased the tower 2 feet when I went up there to stick the preamp, so it's now 30. I noticed for some weird reason TVFool shows a drop in db if I increase the height up to a certain point. I could lower my antenna?

I'm using an EagleStar clone of the 4221. Not exactly the same, but surprisingly works well for a clone (all channels except WGRZ). No I don't have a rotor. I would expect WGRZ to come in as I'm pointed in that general direction, and EVERYTHING else is arriving happily.

I'll consider a yagi. Problem is they're heavy and I have no "safe" means of climbing my tower.

I might build myself a SBGH with NARODS in the spring/summer, and couple it with a robust ch3 folded dipole I will make speficially for CKVR out of Barrie. (The 7777 has seperate VHF and UHF too so combining them won't be an issue).

Thanks for the help :)

Would you get enough gain from this ch3 folded dipole to receive a good enough signal from Barrie Ontario? That's quite a distance.

Probably. I can recieve traces off the back off my 4221 clone (i.e i can make out figures and text, but very snowy), I figure anything's gotta be better than that!

I will have to see. It's just basically a 3/4 aluminum rod bent into a loop cut to the half-wavelength of 62mhz (channel 3).

With analog, what's "good enough" is very subjective :P

I have +8db for CKVR, so all hope is not lost! (The South Buffalo stations are further in mileage IMO, the biggest concern for CKVR is getting over the Oak Ridges Moraine that divides Toronto from the north)

I will report back in the spring!

I have a 2 element beta-design deep fringe antenna that is VHF/UHF. Sometimes at night I test it out and I can actually get a vague snowy reception of CKVR all the way out here at Lake Erie. But that requires extreme aiming at 30ft with a slight tilt and lots of time on my hands. :eek:

CKVR usually has some interference and a little snow at my house with an old vhf antenna in attic point at Barrie.Compared to digital we just never watch it.

So it was a nice weekend and I decided to do the CM4221HD stack. Turned out much higher than I imagined. Both antennas have the 3 mod's and are pointed in exactly the same direction, joined with a monster low loss splitter before the CM7778 preamp. I'll reserve judgment right know as to whether or not there is any improvement as there was a few hours between my last signal check and what I was seeing after the mod's. Improvements could be just the weather. On analog checked 15 TCT Buffalo and 19 TVO. Both clear with no ghosting. Also VHF high 9 CTV and 11 CHCH both clear. Yesterday seen lower signal strength on each end of the UHF band, so lower 14.1 Fox and 66.1 SUN. Everything in between higher. Big gains in 49.1 WNYO, 2.1 NBC, 43.1 PBS, 51.1 ION. Others more or less the same. No real difference in Hamilton or Toronto reception. ION still 55-60% tonight. Is this just the weather or is the stack doing something?

RustyHD: keep an eye on the tropo thread (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=121819) - right now is not a good time to try to estimate your OTA performance. I'd keep a chart or spreadsheet of the signal strength numbers over the next few weeks and then strike off the ones that occurred on high tropo days to get a better baseline idea of how your system is really doing.

I have mounted my CM4221HD on a j pole on the roof of my house, it is currently 35' up in the air. I am pointing the antenna directly south, along Dixie Road. Anyone living the Dixie and Sandalwood area let me know if you get different channels when you point your antenna towards the CN Tower. I am very happy with the channels I got, I just want to maximize the amount of channels I could get before going up on the roof again. I am not afraid of heights, but it is very scary up there with no harness.

2-1 WGRZ
2-2 WGRZ
2-3 WGRZ
4-1 WIVB
5-1 CBLT
7-1 WKBW
9-1 CFTO very weak, somtimes I get the channel
11-1 CHCH
17-1 WNED
17-3 WNED
23-1 WNLO
25-1 CBLF
41-1 CLLL
44-1 ONMI
49-1 WNYL
57-1 CITY
64-1 ONMI
66-1 CKXT

I have mounted my CM4221HD on a j pole on the roof of my house, it is currently 35' up in the air. I am pointing the antenna directly south, along Dixie Road. Anyone living the Dixie and Sandalwood area let me know if you get different channels when you point your antenna towards the CN Tower.
Thats good reception for a 4221 north of brampton. It might be because of our particularly good weather, so they may not all be stable if it gets cold again. The only channels you could get that aren't on your list are CTS (religious)36.1 hamilton and 26.1 (very religious) from Jamestown NY, (south of lake Erie).
I would suggest a pre-amp and a few more degrees west. 150 magnetic.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3db7c84850bb5a6f
click on digital only and its a lot easier to read the TV fool report.

Hello, I just joined (longtime reader), and thanks to this forum I cancelled Rogers.
I'm in north-west Caledon, (north of Brampton).

My 20+ yr. old RatShack ministate "Toronto Antenna" is aimed at the CN Tower on a 40' tower.


CBLT-DT CBC 5.1 best signal
CFTO-DT CTV 9.1
CHCH-DT CHCH 11.1 (not pointed at Hamilton)
CBLF-DT CBC fr 25.1
CITS-DT Cross 36.1 weak / no lock (not pointed here)
CIII-DT Global 41.1 weak / no lock
CJMT-DT OMNI.2 44.1
CITY-DT Citytv 57.1
CFMT-DT OMNI.1 64.1
CKXT-DT Sun TV 66.1

CITY-DT was weak for a long while, but has become usable about 2 months ago.

CFTO-DT was very weak and not usable until the leaves fell off the trees last fall. I may lose it again in a few weeks (or did they boost power?)
(Olympics were great!)

CIII-DT comes in 30% of the time. CBLT-DT is very stable.

CHCH-DT comes in (I think ) on my "Buffalo Antenna" 20% of the time.

--------------------------------
Buffalo / Grand Island (DB8 with chan. master 7778) 25' pole
these stations rock steady
CALL: NET: VER: TEST: TRANS: LOC:
WGRZ-HD NBC 2.1 dtvsignal 33 480 KW South Wales
WIVB-HD CBS 4.1 dtvsignal 39 790 KW Colden
WKBW-HD ABC 7.1 dtvsignal 38 723 KW Colden
WNED-HD PBS 17.1 dtvsignal 43 156 KW Grand Island
WUTV-HD Fox 29.1 dtvsignal 14 1000 KW Grand Island

weak not used:
WNYB_DT TCT 26.1 dtvsignal 26 234 KW Jamestown
WNYO-HD My TV 49.1 dtvsignal 49 198 KW Wym/Er
WPXJ-DT ION 51.1 dtvsignal 23 455 KW Batavia





I don't know whats up with this station...
WNLO-HD The CW 23.1 dtvsignal 32 1000 KW Grand Island
signal jumps all the time... .10% to 70%

[user@server ~]$ dtvsignal 32
using '/dev/dvb/adapter0/frontend0' and '/dev/dvb/adapter0/demux0'
tuning to 581000000 Hz
video pid 0x0021, audio pid 0x0024
dtvsignal ver 1.0.7 - by Jack Kelliher (c) 2002-2007
channel = 32 freq = 581000000Hz
30db 0% 25% 50% 75% 100%
Signal: | . : . | ._____:_____._____|
Signal: 069 ######################



Both antenna feeds run to a WineGard combiner and then a splitter, for the PVR and main TV.

Balun, try running these commands:

dtvsnr 32

femon 32

and let us know what numbers you are seeing. The first gives the signal-to-noise ratio and the second gives the data's error rate. Hopefully those will show the problem.

stampeder
I'll try them tonight, but it looked fine on the TV.

(and I have a typo above, WNLO-HD should be
WNLO-DT -- standard def station).

I might be misunderstanding, Balun - you said the signal on 32 jumps all the time but that it appears to be fine? If so, that's just the dtvsignal app's behaviour since it samples and displays at an extremely rapid pace. It was created by a geek for geeks. ;) I get that all the time on my pcHDTV cards on all DTV stations.

A typical signal strength meter on an HDTV or ATSC receiver box will display a more stable signal by comparison because it is averaging out the samples.

The warmer temps brought WGRZ back to a strong level matching the other Buffalos (regardless tropo or not).

But when the cool air returned, guess what, it went out again!

Infuriating. I'm beginning to question if in fact there is absolutely NOTHING else I can do, and that I'm the unlucky rabbit in the hole for that particular channel. I can't seem to squeeze the extra 5% of signal needed no matter what I do (save for climbing up and replacing the whole antenna which is by the way, impossible with my tower setup)! (45%, 50 needed for lock)

And the weaker WNYO booms in at 85%. WNYB at 65%.

TVFool you lie to me! >=(

My deductive reasoning: WGRZ's contour falls off just off the lakeshore, goes into a null between the Q.E.W and lakeshore, and only picks up again as the elevation rises north of the QEW.

How else can one explain people in Brampton and places north of me get it just fine even with lower, attic setups, and people like me closer to the lake (and the station WITH outdoor antennas 2x the height of anything around me) suffer?

Oh, and someone could also explain why TVFool (at my location) gives more NM the lower I put my antenna? Just try comparing the NM value for WGRZ at 10 ft and 30ft. Seems to defy logic don't you think?!

Someone (not just me) should write them for a power increase, because this is ludicrous.
Anyone south of the QEW confirm this?!

WGRZ-HD NBC 2.1 dtvsignal 33 480 KW South Wales


WNLO-HD The CW 23.1 dtvsignal 32 1000 KW Grand Island
(23.1 is coming in as HD now)

From where I live these 2 stations almost line up with eachother, tv-fool lists them 1 degree apart. This might be why under certain conditions dtvsignal 33 is not steady. little-infinity lives (almost) between me and buffalo, but lower elevation on the lake. I'm on the Niagara Escarpment. Signal conditions are opposite for me.

My buffalo stations are at the best signal strength at night, and overcast days even during bad weather, winter or summer hot or cold.

All my buffalo stations are weakest on hot clear days during the summer (less weak during winter) in the afternoon with bright sun.

Tonight the signals are steady. My Samsung UN46B6000 shows 100% on 23.1 (32), even when not steady (averaging - yes).


[user@server ~]$ femon 32 -H
FE: Oren OR51132 VSB/QAM Frontend (ATSC)
status SCVYL | signal 79% | snr 10% | ber 0 | unc 0 | FE_HAS_LOCK
status SCVYL | signal 80% | snr 11% | ber 0 | unc 0 | FE_HAS_LOCK
~snip~
status SCVYL | signal 81% | snr 11% | ber 0 | unc 0 | FE_HAS_LOCK
~snip~
status SCVYL | signal 79% | snr 10% | ber 0 | unc 0 | FE_HAS_LOCK
status SCVYL | signal 80% | snr 11% | ber 0 | unc 0 | FE_HAS_LOCK
status SCVYL | signal 81% | snr 11% | ber 0 | unc 0 | FE_HAS_LOCK
^C
[user@server ~]$ dtvsnr 32
using '/dev/dvb/adapter0/frontend0' and '/dev/dvb/adapter0/demux0'
tuning to 581000000 Hz
video pid 0x0021, audio pid 0x0024
dtvsnr ver 1.0.7 - by Jack Kelliher (c) 2006-2007
channel = 32 freq = 581000000Hz
dB -10 0 10 20 30 40
SNR: | | | | | |
^CR: 024 ###################################


[user@server ~]$ femon 32
FE: Oren OR51132 VSB/QAM Frontend (ATSC)
status SCVYL | signal cfe1 | snr 1c6b | ber 00000000 | unc 00000000 | FE_HAS_LOCK
status SCVYL | signal cf1a | snr 1c50 | ber 00000000 | unc 00000000 | FE_HAS_LOCK
status SCVYL | signal cc14 | snr 1be6 | ber 00000000 | unc 00000000 | FE_HAS_LOCK

stampeder,
I can record from WNLO-HD 23.1 with mplayer (pchdtv-3000) and it shows a few CRC errors on playback.

Which femon column shows the bit error rate? (unc I think??) ;)
Maybe I can use this in my PVR script.

Thanks for your help. :D

checked again after sunrise (clear day)
WNLO-HD The CW 23.1 dtvsignal 32 1000 KW Grand Island

dtvsignal 32 (to select channel) signal bar all over the place again

[user@server ~]$ femon -H
FE: Oren OR51132 VSB/QAM Frontend (ATSC)
status SCVYL | signal 66% | snr 9% | ber 0 | unc 0 | FE_HAS_LOCK
status SCVYL | signal 33% | snr 4% | ber 0 | unc 0 | FE_HAS_LOCK
~snip~
status SCVYL | signal 30% | snr 4% | ber 0 | unc 0 | FE_HAS_LOCK
status SCVYL | signal 57% | snr 7% | ber 0 | unc 0 | FE_HAS_LOCK
status | signal 20% | snr 2% | ber 0 | unc 0 |
status SCVYL | signal 64% | snr 8% | ber 0 | unc 0 | FE_HAS_LOCK

falls out of lock, snr very low, the TV shows 100% and looks good, but I think the linux tools are accurate, lots of CRC errors on playback (mplayer)

channel 17.1 also on grand island is at 80%
channel 2.1 in south wales at 80%

I think there is a transmitter problem at WNLO 23.1, but most people will not see it.

In femon's output the ber field shows 0 so the data is perfect, but you need to run dtvsnr right after dtvsignal and femon to see if the noise ratio is too low to maintain the lock. I always check all three together. ;)

Little-infinity,

Why, with all your frustration, are you so insistent on using your clone antenna?

Have you not considered that IT might be your problem!

You should look at holl ands graphs (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=1073774&postcount=580) of the UTube 4-Bay Bowtie (this is closest to the Eaglestar’s 7-1/4” whiskers) or even the original 4221. It shows why these antennas are probably not the best choice for your reception of WGRZ. It also shows why you may be receiving channel 49 (WNYO) at higher power than channel 33 (WGRZ)—they’re 100Mhz apart.