After several months of OTA reading, I'm finally going to get my feet wet and try setting something up this weekend.

Although I'm pretty handy, my question is should I buy a CM 4221-HD antenna or try building a DIY GH? The CM costs around $50 here in Toronto, but I'm more concerned about trying to get the best signal. I hear/read that the DIY GH can outperform most pre-built antennas.

Mounting will be decided between attic and existing sat dish location. Does a outdoor mount provide "significantly" better reception than an attic mount? (I'd rather have it in the attic).

Any thoughts/suggestions to help a newbie?


Thanks!

I built a SBGH and when I had a 4221HD in my possession for a few days I did a direct comparision. The SBGH slightly outperformed the 4221 on a few channels, but many of the stations were the same. Overall I think my GH is a better antenna than a 4221HD, and there are other designs that can be built that have even more gain.

I think you'll find that building the antenna is half the fun. There are also a few different GH designs to choose from, so you can pick the one that's best suited to your location.

You'll want to mount whichever antenna you end up with OUTSIDE. Attics are very bad for killing signals.

Nice to hear the GH has performed better than a 4221HD. Building things is definetly fun... unfortunely there are more projects on the go than there is time. Is it safe to safe a SBGH can be built within 3-4 hrs for a first timer?

Deep down I know an outdoor mount is better, but I'm really not looking forward to that as the weather gets colder. I'm also not one to leave things alone, so chances are I'll be tweaking for a couple months. :D As far as reception is concerned, will a lower outdoor mount outperform a higher attic mount (I know, I know, I keep talking about attic mounting...)


Thanks again!

Very much YMMV, my old house has a yagi style antenna in the attic. I tried it and I also tried my original 4221 in the attic. The only channels I could get was CBC and and barely CFTO.

Mounting the 4221 outdoor easily picks up all Toronto channels and the stronger Buffalo channels even if the antenna is hanged fairly low.

For amateurs like us, lot of location tweaking may be needed to see what brings in the best. If you can get a few channels with an attic mount and be satisfied, stick with it for a little bit and observe.

cool5abi, OTA reception is very location-sensitive, so please let us know your city/nearest major street corner. :)

Oops, sorry I meant to mention the location in my first post. I'm in the GTA...NE Brampton...Airport Rd between Mayfield and Bovaird (aka, Castlemore/Rutherford/16th).

My next door neighbour has a clone antenna mounted on the peak of his roof and can pull about 25 channels. My install won't be quite as high and I might have a tree partially in the way. My main goal is to get as much HD as possible, particularly Global, CITY, CBC, CTV and OMNI if possible. The US stations would be a nice bonus (Discovery and HGTV would be a great bonus :D).

Since the suggestion seems to be that there will be a significant signal loss by attic mounting, is it best to buy the 4221HD? If mounting outdoors, time and looks begin to play a factor and I might lean towards buying rather than building. However, I'm not willing to compromise much performance so if either the 4221HD or DIY SBGH will significantly outperform the other, I'm going to go that way.

If the suggestion is to get the 4221HD, chances are in a couple months I'll build a GH just for fun anyway... :p

I think I am cursed with a bad location. I have been playing at this off and on for some months. Gone to the kind people at Save & Replay and got some equipment/info from them. I have a nice chimney mount with a pole that I put a balun modified 4221HD CM on approx. 25-30 ft high. About a 50' run of RG6 which I bought new. Even tried a preamp (albeit a cheaper non-CM one) On the pole I get little from buffalo. I moved to the ground in my backyard using a broomstick and I was getting WNED at 82% on my Panasonic Viera tuner... Hoping to get WGRZ and all of Buffalo. Is the chimney mount just a dead obstructed zone. Do I need to gang another one. Should not a 4221 get all of Buffalo from elevated south Brampton? At first I thought it was mature trees about 150 ft away, but most of the leave are down now. Any help much appreciated!

cool5abi, to answer one of your earlier questions, I think 3-4 hours of actual build time is realistic, not counting the hours of research, planning and obtaining materials. That's probably what I spent on the actual build.

As for you comment about looks being important, a well constructed GH antenna can look very good if it's well planned and executed. You have the added bonus of neighbours asking you what that contraption is and then you get to discuss OTA with them!:D

Lagerman

Your chimney mount photo looks like you’re in ‘Peel Village’. Most of the Brampton posts on here are from newer areas. You have 50-year-old trees, and possibly apartment buildings to deal with. With a chimney mount you probably can’t match the reception of someone in ‘Springdale’.

Have you checked your location, in satellite view on Tvfool.com, for anything that might be obstructing your signal?

I would tilt your antenna up a few degrees. Aim for the top of the trees. I don’t think you should expect to receive a reliable signal for FOX, NBC or ION in your location. Are you consistently pulling-in all of Toronto, Hamilton, and Buffalo’s CW, PBS and MyTV?

For the most part I've been able to enjoy the majority of the DTV OTA channels available! I had a huge thread over at RemoteCentral about this (I had worse reception before.)

However I've had troubles with several weaker channels that I worry will drop out, and 2 channels which are stubbornly avoiding my TV, and things are a little slow over there so I thought I'd haul my question here since it has to do with amps.

Here is my report. My Artec tuner needs a signal of 28% to display PSIP, 30% for a pixelated image, and 33% for a full lock. Don't worry about weather, for some reason my signal doesn't fluctuate too much rain or shine. (probably +/- 5%)

2-1, 2-2, 2-3 (33) (WGRZ/NBC): 33-35% (No dropouts here lately, but dangerously low)
4-1 (39) (WIVB/CBS): 80% (Rock-solid)
5-1 (20) (CBLT/CBC): 70% (Rock-solid)
7-1 (38) (WKBW/ABC): 85% (Rock-solid, strongest signal)
9-1 (40) (CFTO/CTV): 70% (Rock-solid)
11-1 (18) (CHCH/IND): 65% (Rock-solid)
17-1, 17-2, 17-3 (43) (WNED/PBS): 75% (Rock-solid)
23-1 (32) (WNLO/CW): 75% (Rock-solid)
25-1 (24) (CBLFT/RC): 60% (Solid)
26-1, 26-2 (WNYB/TCT): 25%-33% (I get this on some days only)
29-1, 29-2 (14) (WUTV/FOX): 33%-40% (No dropouts, but quite low)
36-1 (35) (CITS/CTS): 30-33% (Very weak, occasional dropouts)
41-1 (65) (CIII/GLOBAL): 25% (I never get this at all.)
44-1 (CJMT/OMNI.2): 80% (Rock-solid)
49-1, 49-2 (WNYO/MYTV): 80% (Rock-solid)
51-1, 51-2, 51-3, 51-4 (23) (WPXJ/ION): 20% (Get this on tropo days)
57-1 (53) (CITY/CITYTV): 30%-35% (I get this reliably, but pixelates occasionally, so very low)
64.1 (CFMT/OMNI.1): 60% (Solid)
66.1 (CKXT/SUNTV): 25% (I got this once very pixelated for 5 minutes)

Others I've gotten from tropo. All Rochester:

8-1 (45) (WROC/CBS): 0%-70% (Get this one first on tropo days, the best catch).
10-1 (WHEC/NBC): 0%-30% (Got this once in the summer, did not last long.)
21-1, 21-2, 21-3 (16) (WXXI/PBS): 0%-35% (This one comes in next)
31-1 (28) (WUHF/FOX): 0%-33% (Got this one for 5 minutes a few weeks back.)

Other channels I've gotten a signal from but so weak (20%) I cannot ID them. I don't really DX (no rotator), but thought it was neat to mention:

12-1: The only possibility I can think of is WICU/NBC in Erie.
21-1: I don't know if this is Watertown's ABC, or Colombus' CBS.
42-1: Saw this one 2 weeks ago. I don't have a clue what this is.
50-1: I have no clue what this is.

First off I live in Clarkson Village, near Southdown and Lakeshore. Not right by the lake, but within a stone's throw (say 300-500m from the shore). My EagleStar 4-bay 4221 clone antenna is fixed on a tower 30 feet above the ground, and is pointing halfway between Buffalo and Batavia. I can get CIII and CKXT easily if I point more towards Toronto, but I won't risk losing FOX and WGRZ, which is almost a certainty if I do that.

I have a few power lines running nearby, as well as alot of trees (but I cleared all of them so they shouldn't be an issue).

I have about 40 feet of RG6 running from my antenna to the wall of my house. 2-3 feet of RG59 cable joins the exterior and interior cables (I cannot change this). The remaining 100feet or RG6 goes from there to the TV. None of it is amplified.

I figure this is my issue, rather than my antenna (which IS recieving a signal). So my suggestion is what amplifier should I go for? The antenna is so high i cannot reach the balun, so the closest place I can place an amp is about 40 feet down the line to the first connector.

So basically my three questions are.

1.) What kind of amplifier is best for my situation? (leaning towards a preamp/CM7777 but what model will suit my needs the best?
2.) Will a preamp actually help me boost those signals to their desired levels?
3.) How effective will it be if I place the preamp 40 feet down the line, rather than right on the antenna?

Hi little-infinity,

Here are my suggestions/answers to your situation:

1) and 2) You could certainly try a 7777. The length of your run combined with the mixed cable types will cause attenuation issues that a pre-amp will help overcome. Plus, a pre-amp will improve your marginal signals and make your receivable signals much more solid. I'm near Erin Mills Parkway and Thomas (up high, not in the Credit River valley) and use a 7777. It was worth the money in my situation. YMMV.

3) This is going to be problematic. The pre-amp should be mounted as close to the antenna as possible. Having it inserted 40-odd feet down the line will mean any ambient noise around that run of coax will be amplified as well. This could actually make your signal reception worse. If there is any way to mount it farther upstream you will get the most benefit.

It looks like your Buffalo reception is in pretty good shape. WPXJ has been very hit and miss for me since the weather has gotten colder. The balance of the Buffalo channels has been fine.

Agree on CM7777 preamp. I use a CM4221HD with 5 ft. RG6 to the preamp. I also use CM 9521A rotator. I find in most cases I can point ~140 towards Batavia and get everything solid. Sometimes I need to go more E or W 120 to 160 degrees. I receive all the channels your list. ION 95% of the time in the evening, daytime signal weaker. Leaving your antenna fixed will not get you the best reception as CN Tower signals are quite low. When Canada goes digital 2011 I doubt that there will be a need to rotate.

Sorry for using the coloured fonts.

Anyways for the preamp being close to the antenna, how would be the best way of going up there? I'd have to detach the cable from the balun, and even climbing the tower itself will not allow me to reach it :S

EDIT: I eliminated the 100 feet of coax and tied my tuner to a smaller TV in the basement (right where the RG59 ends) and I got marginal improvement enough to see CKXT and Global (both were 35% so still very weak). CITY, FOX, and CITS went up to around 50%, but I saw no change in the other stations. I'm worried I might overload my already strong stations. Is that a possibility?

cool5abi, to answer one of your earlier questions, I think 3-4 hours of actual build time is realistic, not counting the hours of research, planning and obtaining materials. That's probably what I spent on the actual build.

As for you comment about looks being important, a well constructed GH antenna can look very good if it's well planned and executed. You have the added bonus of neighbours asking you what that contraption is and then you get to discuss OTA with them!:D
Thanks for the tip DdDave,

I think I am going to try the SBGH antenna out, can't help fight the DIY itch. I've seen some builds that use PVC as a frame, would it be possible to use 1/2" electrical steel conduit instead (EMT). I remember reading that something non-conductive was best.

Any ideas?

for the reply,

You hit the nail on the head. I am in Peel Village and have very mature trees around. I finally mounted my 4221hd on a broom stick and got signal strength shoot outs while I went up on the roof searching for a better spot. Turns out chimney mount is one of the deader spots.. I found a spot on the side of 2nd story of the house about 15' away ...and lower. When I mounted it I have been getting 2.1 solid, 4.1 solid, 7.1 & 29.1 are sporadic. 17.1 is 90% on my DVR-Pal tuner. No Ion but City and most TO channels are fine. Should I be happy with those results? That is with an Antra preamp.

Questions
1. Would an 8 bay be an improvement or just kill the TO channels?
2. Wondered about an 8 bay aimed at Buffalo and the 4221 aimed at CN tower and ganged together? An tips appreciated.... but a lot happier than I was yesterday.... and a great day to be installing an antenna. Hoping to lock in my setup before it gets cold again.

Crazy hobby.... hardly anything off a tower 30 ft in air... go 11 feet lower and 14 feet east and most everything!!

Anyways for the preamp being close to the antenna, how would be the best way of going up there? I'd have to detach the cable from the balun, and even climbing the tower itself will not allow me to reach it :S
How is the mast currently attached to the tower? I would think it would be a matter of loosening off a clamp (or two) and lowering the mast until you can comfortably reach the antenna.

You wouldn't need to disconnect from the balun. Simply cut the cable so you have 3' coming off the antenna, install a new F-connector and screw it into the pre-amp at the appropriate port. Put a connector on the remaining run of coax and screw it into the pre-amp at the other port.

The power injector goes in the house at a convenient location.

EDIT: I eliminated the 100 feet of coax and tied my tuner to a smaller TV in the basement (right where the RG59 ends) and I got marginal improvement enough to see CKXT and Global (both were 35% so still very weak). CITY, FOX, and CITS went up to around 50%, but I saw no change in the other stations. I'm worried I might overload my already strong stations. Is that a possibility?
Overloading is always a possibility. Ideally you would want someone with a proper signal strength meter to measure the strength of the signals coming from the antenna in its current configuration. They could then advise if a pre-amp would cause overload or not.

I've seen some builds that use PVC as a frame, would it be possible to use 1/2" electrical steel conduit instead (EMT). I remember reading that something non-conductive was best.

We should move any further discussion over to the Antenna R&D forum (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=186), but the short answer is NO, use plastic. A metal frame will become part of the active antenna and change the way the antenna works, probably for the worse. If you really wanted to do so, you would have to run a simulation of the antenna with the metal frame to see the impact. Any designs you see posted assume an inert frame that does not interact with the radio waves.

Yep, please make use of the huge number of GH threads already there in the Antennas R&D forum that answer your build questions.

Discussion of your local reception stays in this thread. :)

Cheers Chico2

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for the reply,

You hit the nail on the head. I am in Peel Village and have very mature trees around. I finally mounted my 4221hd on a broom stick and got signal strength shoot outs while I went up on the roof searching for a better spot. Turns out chimney mount is one of the deader spots.. I found a spot on the side of 2nd story of the house about 15' away ...and lower. When I mounted it I have been getting 2.1 solid, 4.1 solid, 7.1 & 29.1 are sporadic. 17.1 is 90% on my DVR-Pal tuner. No Ion but City and most TO channels are fine. Should I be happy with those results? That is with an Antra preamp.

That’s good news, unfortunately Sunday wasn’t the best day for comparative reception results. We benefited from Tropospheric Skip, so reception results will not be typical.

No Ion but City and most TO channels are fine.
What do you mean ‘most’ of the Toronto channels are fine?


1. Would an 8 bay be an improvement or just kill the TO channels?
The 8-bay might lose some channels. My 8-bay loses CTS and Global.


2. Wondered about an 8 bay aimed at Buffalo and the 4221 aimed at CN tower and ganged together?

I’m using both a 4-bay and 8-bay, however they are switched and both are aimed at Buffalo.

The 4-bay is ‘tuned’ higher than the 8-bay, and with its wide reception angle pulls in Toronto and Hamilton (including Buffalo’s PBS, and CW) with no dropouts. The 4-bay is 8.5”(whisker length) x 8”(spacing) with coaxial loop balun. The 8-bay is 10” x 9.75” w/coaxial loop baluns. Both are Mclapp style minus the forward swept whiskers. The 8-bay has added about 3 dB to the 4-bays performance.