Hi TorontoR,

It’s time step back and make a decision. Option #1 Are you going to install a 4228 plus a rotor (easiest straight forward option) or Option # 2 try to combine (gang) two antennas in different directions.

Option #1

Main advantages are it is relatively easy to install and it works!

The main disadvantages of option one is you must have a rotor to receive all channels and
notably it is only good for one TV set a time.

Option #2

Main advantage once you get it working it’s you will able to receive all the channels on demand and on multiple TV sets if properly distributed.

The disadvantage, for the newcomer it can be overly complicated and difficult to accomplish. If attempt this it would be preferable that you install have the ability to install the system as it could require many adjustments and lots of time, as I said before.

Remember one thing you can always go for option one then in the future upgrade to option two. I guess that is what I did :)

All the best!

BTW

Let me also try to clarify the meaning between ganging and combining antennas. First off I have always used the term combining antennas (in different directions) in the past, but after reading Stampeder post I realized that the proper termonology is “Ganging”

What is the difference between Ganging and Stacking two antennas?
• "Ganging" is the combining of 2 or more antennas' outputs together.
• "Stacking"is the specific combining of 2 identical antennas faced in the exact same direction for long distance, deepest fringe reception. For example, to stack 2 CM4228s for deepest fringe reception mount one above the other in the exact same aim with their reflector meshes just touching.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTGuy
Is there a way to combine two antennas to receive signals from two different locations?
Absolutely, but ideally the antennas must be identical. Ganging different types of antenna that use the same band (such as a CM4221 and a PR-9032 UHF antenna) can be very, very difficult, while combining a VHF with a UHF is routinely done and works very well.

In a case where we have UHF stations in two relatively fixed directions that are between about 20 to 160 degrees apart we might be able to avoid using a rotor by ganging two antennas, but we will have some work to do. First, it is highly advised that the antennas be identical. It is possible to gang different brands or types of UHF antenna, but for the newcomer it can be overly complicated and difficult to accomplish.

For this article we will assume that Antenna A and Antenna B are identical CM4228s and that the path from each to their respective target stations is clear.

When we gang two antennas it is essential to use one of these two methods to connect them, with more detailed information provided later in this article:
1. connecting their feed points by exactly equal lengths of 300 ohm twinlead (as short as possible) into a single balun, which then feeds into your preamp. If your antennas are subject to local interference use shielded, foam-filled 300 ohm twinlead.
2. connecting their feed points directly to individual baluns, which then feed over exactly the same length of coaxial cable into a joining device to create a single coax lead going into your preamp. Don't guess or be sloppy about it - they must match perfectly in length. A high frequency, high quality 2-to-1 splitter will suffice as a joining device. Such splitters can be found in many electronics and satellite stores, but avoid the cheapie ones. The balun-to-splitter cable can be RG59, but I personally use RG6 for everything.
At this point, regardless of which option we choose, we might face a very basic electronic problem. We'll need to make sure that the two antennas are in phase so that their signals complement eachother instead of cancelling eachother out. We won't be able to tell if there is a phase problem until we hook up a TV, so lets assume we're all hooked up and ready to test.

Now we face another very basic electronic problem. Ganged antennas cannot be too close together or their fields will interact in undesirable ways, so in the case of a CM4228 we should leave at least 25 inches of space between them (see explanation later in this article). Remember that this minimum distance does not apply to stacking, just ganging.

At this point we need to take our best guess as to the aim of the two antennas, but don't worry yet about getting it right. We just need to have some signal showing up on the screen. If there is little or no good signal after connecting the downleads of Antenna A and Antenna B through the splitter, disconnect the balun wires off of Antenna B, switch the two wires around, reconnect them to that antenna, check the TV, and we'll find that the signals are now in phase and are working properly together.

Next, we will have the actual aiming task to perform. The term for getting one antenna's aim perfect is called peaking. The most natural expectation is that we would disconnect Antenna A from the splitter and peak Antenna B perfectly for its intended station(s), then do the opposite to peak Antenna A for its own. If only it were that easy!

Unfortunately there may be some further aiming to do. The problem is that antennas like the CM4228 have a specific beam pattern of reception that has areas of strong and weak signal. For example, see this illustration of the CM4228's beam pattern (from the HDTV Primer site):

I'll clear this up in the FAQ, but the electronics term "ganging" is really just a re-use of the old term for:A combination of similar implements arranged so as, by acting together, to save time or labor; a set; as, a gang of saws, or of plows.In electronics I can have 2 resistors side by side on a circuit board but if they are involved in different circuits they are not ganged. If they are part of the same circuit and the current flows through both of them as part of the same task they are ganged. With antennas, we can use Ken Nist's expertise to clarify the same thing:Stacked antennas - The use of multiple antennas is called stacking or ganging. The antennas must be identical.

Dipoles are commonly stacked horizontally (collinearly), vertically (broadside), and in echelon (end-fire).
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/stacked.gif
When dipoles are stacked horizontally, the horizontal beam-width becomes very narrow. This is because they do not add in-phase for directions not straight ahead. Similarly, when stacked vertically, the vertical beam-width becomes narrower.

The same principles apply when stacking whole antennas, not just dipoles.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/glossaryR.html#stacked

Now that part about identical antennas is very important. I personally would not gang a CM4228 with a CM4221 but as always, I delight when people get the reception that they find satisfactory for their needs.

TorontoR:

I'm near Britannia and Erin Mills, south and west of you. We're about the same elevation (~600 feet). I have a fixed 4221 at about 30' pointed roughly ESE. My view isn't nearly as good as yours but I can get everything digital from Toronto and Buffalo on one antenna.

I added a 7777 pre-amp to help bring the overall signal levels up and it has helped eliminate fading due to atmospheric conditions.

The 4228 while a better antenna in terms of gain may actually hurt you in terms of beamwidth. That is, the 4221 has a wider "aperture" for capturing signals whereas the 4228 has a narrower one. That may work against you if you're trying to receive Toronto and Buffalo on one antenna.

Thanks for the info Mr. Weather, Biggy, Stampeder, tenstu.

For the time being and upon further research/ recommendations from the good folks mentioned above, I am now pondering to save the grief and install the 4221 not on the roof but with a J pipe next to my second story window and the antenna would then be within reach for tweaking. My second story is actually 3 stories up with the basement being above ground. I am still splitting to two TV's but the run to both is withing 50 feet. Would I need to get a CM 3414 switch or because of the split do I need to at least get a 7778 pre amp?

Sounds like a good plan I like the easy access and as I see it keep simple.

Setup your 4221 antenna with only one TV first and see what results you get. Are you pleased with them? (Do get all the channels you want? etc.) This will help you decided what you will need to do next. If you are not happy with the results you have to decide on other options which several members have provided.

If everything works out add the second TV, just purchase a good quality dual output splitter and test that first.

You mention a CM 3414 switch I am pretty sure you mean distribution amplifier. The above tests will help you determine if you need a distribution amplifier.

Do not purchase a preamp it won’t increase the ability of you antenna to reach out farther stations. Preamps are designed to compensate for long line losses and 40ft is not long, on short run it can cause overloading on your TV tuner.

Welcome to the world of OTA, take your time work safe have fun:)

TorontoR, just more food for thought (and hope it doesn't muddy your plans :o)

I have a 4221 and resisted getting a rotor for about a year. I kept trying and trying and trying to find the exact direction to get me Toronto, Buffalo, and Hamilton from a single aim. I never found it so I got the rotor.

Since then I've experimented with different aims in my spare time. Some were close to what I wanted, but not perfect. Then I started trying crazy things just to see what the results were. Much to my surprise, about 6 weeks ago, I found the ideal aim and I've had no need to touch my rotor any longer. I received all of digital 2,4,5,7,9,11,17,23,25,26,29,36,41,44,49,57,64,66 pretty much 24x7 with no dropouts since! (the only outages I've experienced were sourced at the transmitter).

The aim I'm using is nothing I'd ever expect to work - I'm pointing 63 degrees towards South from First Canadian Place, 59 degrees towards South from the CN Tower, about 4 degrees towards South from Buffalo (all Buffalo transmitters are virtually collinear from my location), about 25 degrees towards South from Jamestown, and about 55 degrees towards South from Hamilton.

As you can see, the 4221 is a great performer for off axis reception due to its beamwidth.

The lesson here is that a rotor is a useful tool for setup even if you want a stationary placement. You could also sell the rotor if you find your perfect placement (but I'm keeping mine just in case :D ) - I'm sure there will be someone in this forum who'd be interested in buying one! :)

I also use a single antenna without rotator. I opted for an amplified Lacrosse which is quite small. I had to experiment with mounting location and height to maximize reception. The touchy channels were Fox and CTV. FOX would actually go from full signal to none in as little as 4 ft. Sure I could aim the antenna at the CN tower and get CTV perfect but the goal was to get everything without rotating. My location is Erin Mills, Erin Mills Prkwy / The Collegeway. Antenna is aimed directly at Grand Island to maximize signal from MyTV. From the right side I get E! and CTS and from the left all Toronto channels. Buffalo channels normally 90-100% signals. Another note is that 5th Gen ATSC tuners do better with off axis signals. I had a 4th Gen tuner for a while which could not lock on all channels. I have Sanyo and Viewsonic TV's both with great tuners, and a Samsung DTB-H260F on a projector. Looking forward to a PVR, DTVPal looks real promising.

Can anyone explain how wacked this is and how its possible. Okay main floor HDTV can't get any Buffalo channels except The CW 23-1.

Upstairs HDTV usually never got anything for except CW 23-1 as well. Now I changed my cable to a 12ft roll of RG-6, used my small indoor antenna (Spectrum LP-410) which has a gain of 5-6dbi and lifted it high and did a channel scan...and said WTH! I used to have 9 digital channels, now I got like 15.......channels from buffalo like nbc, cbs, wned-hd.....

I now get WGRZ 2-1, this is NBC, well the Buffalo affiliate. But what the heck, this is like 93 miles away (150KM away) from my location according to Google earth and operating on 480 kW power.

HOW is this remotely possible? Im watching Night Rider (cheesy) in HD right now.

Another thing is that I can get also CBS 4-1, but I haven't gotten it positioned in a good location enough to come through cleanly...

Amazing! So weird!

Haha I guess that night was lucky. Today nothing works...lol

Even when mounting my antenna (cm4221) high and pointed in the optimal direction I am cannot get CTV Global or Fox from Buffalo. Main run of RG6 is 50 feet to TV.

Talked to a professional installer who indicates he has been in the business for a long time and in Mississauga should be able to pull ALL Toronto and Buffalo. Says my problem is the poor quality ATSC tuner in the TV (Sharp D62). He says the solution is to get the 7775 pre-amp to resolve these issues. Also, says the antenna does not need to be mounted too high either because I am on high ground in Mississauga, (he'll be mounting it near the Bell dish (about 25 feet down from the roof line and use that wiring into my central box in the basement. He will then disconnect rooms where I will not have a TV installed and run a distribution amplifier so that I can use the existing wiring in the house. Says the signal will be fine to three TV's without too many issues.

Any thoughts on this professional's insights?

Well, he's the professional but my amateur experience has been that when dealing with RF at UHF frequencies the higher you can get your antenna the better.

He does have a point about the weak tuner. Current (5th generation?) ATSC chipset are the most sensitive. I don't know when they started appearing in consumer gear but I have a Diamond 9000HD FTA receiver with OTA capability and it can pull in stations with better signal quality than my Sharp Aquos which is about 6 months older.

Current (5th generation?) ATSC chipset are the most sensitive.
And just to clerify, sensitive in this sense is a good thing and not a bad thing. The newer the tuner, the better chance that a fringe signal is going to come in and be stable as opposed to an older tuner that cant handle flux.

We're up to 6th Generation now, but they're slowly entering the Canadian marketplace due to the huge demand for them to go in the U.S. Coupon Boxes.

TorontoR, I would say to the installer that if the reception is unsatisfactory with the antenna down low that you would expect that he'd do everything he can to make it right. :)

Stampeder, that is the intention and the expectation that is to be set when the work starts tomorrow, If I'm not getting all the channels that I want which I know I should be able to get, than the tweaking continues until I do. Also, I am still getting the 7775 preamp and the distribution amplifier since I'm wiring into multiple TV's and using the internal wiring in the house from Rogers.

You can overboost and actually loose channels. For me the ideal setup was a low noise 15db/port 4 port distribution amp from the antenna. I use ~50 ft RG6 from the antenna to the amp and ~40 ft RG6 from the amp to the TV's. With this setup you can use a low loss splitter 2.4Ghz 2:1 or 3:1 on any of the lines and have no signal loss. Use the $25 variety not the $2 ones. If you're using F59 coax do so after the amp as you will have losses. I tried a 25db booster which was supposed to be low noise and lost about 5 channels.

I have a phillips uhf outdoor/indoor antenna mounted indoors 3 stories high with a pre amp or
some amplifier thats attached at the end of my antennas cable to my tv, for some reason
the reception is always better in the summer. But my antenna is pointing south towards buffalo and a couple of toronto stations are coming in pixelated. I plan to get another better antenna and point the better one in line of site with buffalo, and the one I am using now, I
am gonna mount and point at toronto. My question is would a regular dollar store splitter
that has 2 outputs and 1 input work in reverse so 2 antennas in the out pointed at 2 cities
and the in goes to my tv, or do I need to spend big bucks to get something fancy?
Also would it be best to use the amp thing (its really small that came with my phillips
antenna) after the splitter or use it on each antenna before it hits the splitter? I think it
makes more sense to do it after the splitter. Has anyone tried the two antenna method and
does it sound right what im doing? because it seems to get both cities 2 antennas can get
really good line of sight rather than messing with one antenna. I live around dixie and dundas
mississauga , so not far from the lake but this is a indoor setup , I cannot do outdoor , but
mount 1 antenna facing a window towards toronto, so also can you recommend a
second antenna? I have some walls and obstructions in the way to buffalo ,but I still
get most with the phillips mant940 antenna? thanks

Anyone in Mississauga able to pick up the following:

2.1 33.1 WGRZ-DT NBC Buffalo, NY
2.2 33.2 WGRZ-DT WTHR+ Buffalo, NY


My CM4221 with 7775 is not mounted on the roof just yet so not sure if that is the issue but I cannot get the above channels. I am getting everything else that I should possible be able to get with my setup. Also, Fox (29.1) seems to be the weakest out of the Buffalo station, anyone else corroborate this?

I am able to receive both WGRZ channels with just a CM4221 positioned at a front bedroom window for now. I can also receive both WUTV channels (29-1,29-2). But then I am in East Oakville a good Roman seige engine's throw from the Lake.

welcome ontherooftop (although by the sounds of it your username should have been "intheattic" ;),

My question is would a regular dollar store splitter
that has 2 outputs and 1 input work in reverse so 2 antennas in the out pointed at 2 cities
and the in goes to my tv, or do I need to spend big bucks to get something fancy? Yes it will work, but a better quality splitter is recommended.

Also would it be best to use the amp thing (its really small that came with my phillips
antenna) after the splitter/Yes, after the splitter,... if you need it
Has anyone tried the two antenna method and
does it sound right what im doing?
Many people have - see post #16 in the FAQ and Knowledgebase:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=41102&page=2
I have some walls and obstructions in the way to buffalo ,but I still
get most with the phillips mant940 antenna? thanks
Both of your antennas should be identical. See the antenna chart in the FAQ and Knowledge Base for Stampeder's list of recommended antennas.

cheers.

Anyone in Mississauga able to pick up the following:

2.1 33.1 WGRZ-DT NBC Buffalo, NY
2.2 33.2 WGRZ-DT WTHR+ Buffalo, NY


My CM4221 with 7775 is not mounted on the roof just yet so not sure if that is the issue but I cannot get the above channels. I am getting everything else that I should possible be able to get with my setup. Also, Fox (29.1) seems to be the weakest out of the Buffalo station, anyone else corroborate this?
Get the 4221 on the roof and you'll get WGRZ. It's one of the more stronger stations for me.

Early on I had some reception problems with WUTV but I turned my 4221 a little further to the south and it came in fine without any real degradation in the Toronto channels.