Don't think because you can't get anything using the MANT400 that it's hopeless... the MANT400 is garbage... a coat hanger would have worked better.
OK, thanks for your very straightforward opinion. I am sure I got what I paid for.... :D

I'd recommend you call in the guys that did my Tower install. They were V & E Antenna... have them come over and do a site survey. They will climb up on your roof and test for signals with their equipment and can tell you right then and there what you can get and what kind of antenna you need.
Great idea! Thank you.

Found their web site, which includes address, phone numbers, and email. Will ask for a quote for them to perform such a survey.

As OTA HDTV seemed to be getting more practical, I decided to try it. In my short experience, it is extremely location-dependent. So, in the hope that it might save people in Port Credit, near Hurontario and QEW (S. Mississauga) some time and money, here is my experience.

If you want to skip over all my pain, just see the observations section below. This only justifies the observations, and you can save time by not repeating my mistakes.

I have an HDTV that does not include a digital tuner. The first purchase was a Sanyo DTB-H260F. I could not find it easily in Canada, and they were expensive in the US. However, there is an outlet for department store demo/returns that often seems to sell these on Ebay. I paid US$82 in the auction, a little less than the buy-it-now price, plus about $25 for shipping/taxes.

I tried it first with just a piece of wire, which is what we've used to receive (poor quality) VHF broadcasts. The TV is in the family room, in a walk-out basement that faces east. I was surprised that even the piece of wire revealed about 8 channels on a scan, including WNED PBS (always one of the easiest it seems) though actual reception was very iffy.

Since the wire almost worked, I followed the instructions on the net for a home-made clone of a 4221. It didn't work any better than the wire, so I suspected the low height was a problem.

I bought a DB4 antenna from TigerDirect. It is a ripoff, as it seems similar antennas are available in the US for as little as $20, and this was $80, but none of the US places sell into Canada and I was getting impatient. I later found clones of the DB4 selling in the electronics/satellite stores at Matheson west of Dixie for $25, though they didn't look quite as good quality. I haven't tried them.

The commercial antenna performed no better than my home-made one. Family was beginning to question the whole process, when things had looked easy at the start, and now the cost had already doubled with still no useable picture.

I then bought some coax, and tried holding the antenna upstairs in the living room. At the right angle, several Buffalo stations plus CBC English and French were no problem.

So, as is said elsewhere, building and height are truly a big deal. I decided to place the antenna into the attic. The house is a bungalow, and the attic is low, so the placement options were limited. I mounted the antenna facing at right angles to the house - that is to say, facing the same direction as Hurontario Street, which is almost on a line for Grand Island. I spent a lot of time routing the cable down through to the basement.

Most Buffalo stations were great, up to about 60% (four to six of ten bars, except WNED, always stronger), with even the WNYB Jamestown sometimes coming in, but no Toronto stations (except sort of CBC). This is because near the lakeshore, the Toronto stations (and Hamilton) are pretty much at right angles to the Buffalo stations, which is the very worst possible scenario for almost any antenna.

The map shows in blue the transmitter locations from the US that can realistically be received in Port Credit from the US. The red lines show the location of Toronto (CN Tower, First Canadian Place) and Hamilton transmitters.

The next step was to see if things improved with the antenna outside. After some trouble with a chimney mount that used a strap (and was too short to go around the 1950s three-flue chimney, and had to be drilled and bolted onto the chimney instead), and re-routing the cable down through an unused flue to keep the distance to 50', the Buffalo signals were stronger than ever.

However, there was no compromise position where I could receive many of the Toronto signals and most of the Buffalo. I could get CBC and CTV, plus some Buffalo, or most Buffalo, and only CBC. To get any other Toronto stations (not that many are worth watching, as there is no digital TVO signal that I can find as of Nov 2007), I lost all the Buffalo stations except WNED.

The next step was to try a pre-amp, and see if that would allow the compromise I was hoping for. I bought (again on Ebay) a Channel Master Spartan 3 pre-amp. When it arrived, there was another problem because I did not investigate them enough to see that some have 75 ohm inputs and some have 300 ohm inputs. The DB4 antenna has a built-in converter to give a 75 ohm output, where the amplifier has only a 300 ohm input because it assumes a 'raw' antenna. (I was only interested in UHF, so I didn't care about other differences between the models, some do UHF plus VHF, some UHF only - just don't buy a VHF only because that won't help with any of them).

I then installed a 300 to 75 ohm transformer from The Source (Circuit City), in order to make the antenna compatible with the amplifier that I bought.

With the antenna aimed at Grand Island, I was able to get 90% to 100% (9 out of 10 bars) on the stronger stations. Interestingly, WNYB, the western-most station, was still not often not as good as it had been when the antenna was just in the attic with no preamp.

However, there were still no Toronto stations. Worse, when the antenna was disconnected from the digital tuner box and connected directly to the TV to see what regular UHF signals were available, whether the antenna was pointed towards Toronto or not, it looked like some of the Toronto signals might be overloading the preamp (I don't really know what that would look like exactly, but the picture say on TVO was much worse than it had been without the preamp - it had been perfect before when the antenna was pointed downtown with no preamp).

Observations

So after all the experimentation to date, I can make some observations that may help others:

1. You do need some proper UHF antenna, for either Toronto or Buffalo stations.

2. The antenna may not need to be outside, but it does need to be reasonably high (our attic was about 12 feet above the ground).

3. A home-made antenna will probably work for many of the strong stations (at least CBC and maybe CTV from Toronto, WNED from Buffalo). If you have a home-made antenna, and it's not working, it may be because of the location/height not because your creation did not work.

4. Unless you are further north from the lake/QEW (such as perhaps Eglinton or something), or you are luckier/smarter than me, you are not going to get both Buffalo and Toronto stations.

5. Being outside makes a noticeable difference. Getting a pre-amp makes a noticeable difference. But being outside, and having a pre-amp, may cause problems without solving anything else. I would say a pre-amp might be good if you want your antenna in your attic (though try it without first), but a pre-amp outside is a waste of money. (The possible exception might be if you are going to split the signal, for example to feed both the TV directly for regular UHF, and the digital tuner box (assuming it's separate) - however, I'm guessing that a distribution amplifier might be better for that than an antenna preamp, probably cheaper, and easier to install).

6. If you want Buffalo *and* Toronto, I believe you either need a rotor, or you need two antennas and a switch or combiner.

7. If you don't want to mess around, go for an outdoor antenna of DB4 type from the beginning. Forget about a preamp. I would guess you won't want to go for anything more expensive (TigerDirect.ca is now selling the DB8 in Etobicoke), because it will just narrow the field too much from Buffalo and it seems you probably don't need the gain (unless again you are going in the attic, where a DB8 might be an alternative to a preamp, if you need it, and the antenna will still fit).

8. Don't forget to agitate against the growing wall of condos that Corbasson and McCallion plan to have marching down Lakeshore. Corbasson points out that it's the people that make the place, and skyscraping condos don't really matter. Who knew? The citizens of Banff and Niagara on the Lake should get with the program, and realize they won't spoil their towns by making them look like Chicago. But even if a wall of condos will look positively lovely and contribute to the wonderful village atmosphere, who knows what will be receivable once there is a wall of concrete there like there is in downtown Toronto?

9 Somebody could have a good business in south Mississauga putting up UHF antennas on chimneys, and selling HD converter boxes as a nice package.

The Future

Because a rotor makes channel surfer a slow-motion affair, and we already have four remote controls for the setup we have, I am going the two-antenna route.

Given the signal directions, one antenna will be at right angles to the other. Where you really need a DB4 or something for Buffalo, I think something smaller might work for Toronto stations (several seem so weak you are not going to get them reliably anyway - it seems any digital in Canada is being done by the stations under protest, always keen to stay in the dark ages).

The other thing I'm going to try is an antenna for Canadian signals with the reflector removed - this allows the antenna to receive from both sides, and because we in Port Credit are pretty much on a line between Hamilton and the CN Tower, it may be possible to get both signals from the one antenna pretty well. (There is a loss by taking the reflector off, but any Canadian station that is really hoping to get anyone to watch it should be receivable at the short distance even without a reflector on the antenna).

NoMoreCable, sorry to read of your troubles, but...

I have to say that most of the steps you took were not what is advised here in DHC's OTA Forum. I see several things that I would have tried to stop you from doing, and I see that some of your conclusions have been available here for quite some time too in the Knowledge Base & FAQ and the Antenna Chart, while some of your conclusions do not apply to other people in general because they are based on gear and other things that are not recommended.

I guess we just didn't connect in time beforehand... :(

Hi Stampeder,

Perhaps the most valuable message in my post is to agree with your instructions: Read everything about the general topic within DigitalHome before going ahead!

I came across DigitalHome as a result of Google searches, and rather than systematically working through DigitalHome, I did not realize at first it was more than just threads, and so I just used the many (and often unrelated) individual posts that Google popped up from many different sites.

One thing that was missing in my original post was a 'thank you' to you and others for putting so much information together. I do have a better understanding now of what is available on the site.

From reading everything I can find here (most of it, though admittedly not all, for the second time), it looks like I ended up pretty much where the forums would have guided me. But if there is anything that I've missed - I'm definitely open to learning from anyone else's experience.

Just for clarification, what was not sufficiently obvious to me (though it probably is to others) is how important the specific location is: Just because something applies in Mississauga/Oakville definitely does *not* necessarily mean it applies to all locations in that area. You need to think very specifically about your angle to the various transmitters, especially (in the GTA) as you get closer to the lake, and especially outside downtown.

Based on everything I've read, and wanting to avoid a rotor if reasonably possibly: Given the lakeshore location (QEW/Hurontario), in between Hamilton and downtown Toronto, and at right angles to the general Buffalo stations, does a second antenna with a combiner sound like right way forward?

Also, even with the 4 bow-tie DB4 clone, and the preamp, and the antenna outside, I still find some Grand Island stations (Fox) are weather dependent, even with 'optimal' antenna rotation. I understand from various places that there are sometimes 'hot spots' within a few feet, and presumably also dead spots. Or maybe it's just being relatively low (closer to the lake), and some of the lower powered stations are just tough unless I get a much higher tower. I'm within the 'fringe' as defined in the decision chart, and I have the 4 bay with pre-amp, and I'm already getting 100% with WNED which transmits from the same area. An 8 bay could be an alternative, but it looks like the beam might be narrow enough I could lose the Buffalo stations to either side of Grand Island.

Any recommendations on dual antennas, or these marginal stations?

Thanks for any pointers!

Respectfully, I must suggest that you are way off base with this assumption.
My Channel Master rotor takes only 13 seconds to make a 90 degree turn.
A proper antenna and rotor installation will be far less work, and in all likelyhood, less expensive than a two antenna installation.

Whatever you decide, good luck and welcome here. Would you please add your location to your user profile? That makes it easier for other to help you better.

No More Cable,

Sounds like you had quite some fun with OTA! ;)

I had the same prolem with toronto and buffalo at right angles to each other, 2-1/2 years ago. I'm on the opposite side of the cntower from you, but same problem.
Could have told you from the beginning, higher is better and the best antenna you can afford.
No, the first thing i would have told is about grounding the antenna mast and a ground block on the coax line.
I saw what was left of my old bosses house after a lightning hit.
not only did the tv and every radio in the house fry up, all computers dead and even the micro processor in the oven was shot.

I'd recommend you call in the guys that did my Tower install. They were V & E Antenna... have them come over and do a site survey. They will climb up on your roof and test for signals with their equipment and can tell you right then and there what you can get and what kind of antenna you need.
Sorry, but after three email exchanges, they seem uninterested in giving a straight answer or a quote for services.

I have asked them three times how much they would charge to drive to my house, go up on the roof, and test signal strength. I made it clear that I am interested in OTA, but not willing to move ahead unless I know that signals are available at my location.

I also made my home address clear, and explained that my concern is the elevation of my property, and the tall structures going up in the centre of Brampton.

They provided a quote for an anteanna install. They have never answered if they will do signal tests, or how much. They just stopped responding to my email when I made it clear that I appreciated the quote for an antenna install, but that was not what I wanted until I know if there are TV stations available.

Heck, even an indication if they can even do signal testing without first doing a full antenna install would have been appreciated!

A pretty frustrating experience, overall.

Hi Timbo,

Thank you for the welcome, I've added my profile location.

The rotor is certainly faster than I thought, thanks for the tip. I'm thinking that it's not only my short attention span that is a potential limitation with a rotor though, since I assume the OTA program guide on my DF260 can only update when the antenna is close enough to the desired station, requiring a rotate every time to update the programs? With a two-antenna scenario that might/should not be the case?

Hi Tom.F.1,

With the 'best antenna you can afford' I guess I would have gone for an 8-way bow tie, but my understanding was that in this location that would be unnecessarily strong (and undesirably narrow).

If I go the two-antenna route, I could use the 4-way bow tie for Toronto (and maybe Hamilton, if I remove the reflector) and get an 8-way for Buffalo? Fox 29 is definitely sometimes a problem, even with the 4-way and preamp. It could be that the 8-way (esp for Fox, below) might be better even without the preamp, and then the pre-amp can return to Ebay!

I could only get two or three feet higher with my chain-link fence-pole mast on the chimney before having to go to a tower, which won't happen before winter (and might be in violation of family zoning laws anyway - the current antenna is feeling like it's close to the limit). I'm guessing there is no way I could get above the trees with any tower anyway (oaks, probably 60 feet or more). I'm pretty sure I'm above any rooftops within 300 feet, and even then just the odd house beyond that for a mile. So my best bet is still a better antenna?

Also on the subject of grounding: My Dad had a 'professional' installer come in for his roof-top satellite dish. He had tried installing it himself, and couldn't get it aimed from his deck, but he ended up knowing the install kit contents and the instructions. When he asked the installer about the ground wire etc., the installer just said 'no-one ever bothers with that' and left it out. Scary.

The mast may not be at huge risk because of all the tall trees, but especially as the mast now extends above the chimney a couple of feet and is definitely the highest point on the house, I need to ground. I'm skeptical about using only a grounding block on the skinny antenna line, having also seen what lightning can do (elsewhere). To be properly safe, never mind hopefully saving equipment, I'm guessing a proper thick ground line is needed from the mast (plus maybe the grounding block too)? The power poles on our street do get hit from time to time (it's a shame they are not buried, asking for trouble) and even those surges definitely knock some things out.

So, everyone with battle scars, does this seem the right route?

(1) Grounding, then

(2) probably an 8-bay,

(3) a rotor for the 8-bay, or a combiner with 8-bay for Buffalo, and use the left-over 4-bay for Toronto.

(4) drop the pre-amp unless it really proves necessary with the 8-bay, and get a distribution amp if needed to overcome splitter losses if that shows itself a problem.

I can probably get an 8-bay at a reasonable price if I order now from a US supplier, as I need to go to Buffalo to pick up other stuff anyway (saving over $900 by buying a lawn tractor from Sears in Niagara Falls instead of Mississauga - but like Chrysler and Honda they of course are voiding the warranty...).

Thanks for any other suggestions/recommendations!

I went with the combing antennas rather than a rotor because i wanted to do unattended recording.

Combining 2 different antenna types is tricky to get them in phase.
And you have to realize there is a loss when conbining. So, if your 4 bay is just barely getting FOX, you'll only get half the signal when you combine.
Thats why i use the 8 bay for buffalo. Then i narrowed the angle between them so they add together

Hi everyone.

I've been looking around this site for quite a while now and have read mostly everything there is on OTA. But I do have a few questions about how to go about in my own installation. First off, I live in Caledon East, about 20km north of Brampton. I want to install a tower with the antenna approximately 200 ft away from the house (I've got a lot of space at the back). This is because there are huge trees surrounding my house, as well as my neighbours' (plus I'd also prefer the antenna+tower out of sight).

Now, is it possible to install the antenna 200 ft away (plus about 70 ft of additional cable weaving through the house) and still be able to pick all the channels up (with a preamp)? If I can't, the closest I can get it would be about 100ft, and I probably would have to get the tower higher than 50ft. Oh, and finally, I was thinking about getting the Delhi VU-936SR (UHF/VHF/FM) antenna. Any thoughts about that? I want to get the most channels I can possibly get (including analog).

Welcome here marvel, and yes the Delhi VU-936SR is my favourite combo antenna recommendation, but given your unusual situation you need to keep in mind that what works for Brampton and area doesn't really apply to you. Given the extreme length of cable you are talking about (200' +) you'll need to go big or go home :D I might even recommend the Delhi VU-937SR model just to get more energy into your system at the top
You should get the VU-8PZ UHF booster kit with it too for the same reason
You'd need to put up a very strong all-channel preamp, so I'd say go for the Winegard AP-8275
Regarding the coax I'd only use RG11 for a 200'+ run, and it is thick, heavy, and almost unbendable. RG6 might do the job, but I wouldn't try it.
At the demarc point into your house you'd put the preamp's power injector first on the RG11 line
From the power injector's signal output you'd then run RG6 downstream from it
There's a chance the preamp might be able to handle interior distribution, but if not you'll need to use a distribution amp right at that point on
Either way, from there you'd start your splits to each TV/FM receiver that you want driven by it.If you created a system like that you could probably charge envious DHCers a fee to come and tour your location! ;)

Thanks for the reply stampeder. Regarding the antenna, is it very directional? I'm hoping I can point it in one direction between the CN Tower and Buffalo (I've read a lot of Bramptonian's results on here, and it seems it's possible for them). One final question, regarding analog, I'm not much of a techie, but would the VHF portion of that antenna be able to receive signals from all ends, or is it directional also, it's just that I was hoping to get AChannel from Barrie. As I stated before, I want every channel humanly (and to budget) possible that I can receive from my location (my antenna budget is below $300), analog or digital.

Combo antennas like the ones we mentioned are very directional, so I think a rotor is a must for you.

Very directional you say.... hmm. So, I'd be able to get the Toronto signals, but not the Buffalo signals? This is making me think twice about getting that combo antenna. I don't want to move that mammoth antenna around everytime I want to switch to some channels. It's just that I also wanted to receive CKVR from Barrie, CHEX from Peterborough, and CITS+CHCH from Hamilton (all in different directions!). Should I ditch the combo antenna? I want to receive all the channels possible from the area. But I don't want to get 3 massive VU-937s lol. What should I do stampeder? (Remember, me wants max channels at max power!)

marvel, time to get out a map and see how much of an angle there is between Toronto and Buffalo. Hopefully the angle is pretty narrow.

For your needs and your location there is no satisfactory omnidirectional antenna that will get you Toronto, Buffalo, Barrie, and other stations as opposed to a directional antenna on a rotor. If you want to experiment with putting a UFO-style omni up there it is possible you might get some the reception you want by virtue of plenty of altitude, but there's no way an omni would match a directional combo yagi for solid signal towards the target stations.

Marvel with analog ending 2011 why don't you point a uhf antenna toward Buffalo/Toronto and a VHF antenna towards Barrie joined with a VHF/uhf combiner.My VHF antenna is at Barrie and combined with my UHF antenna toward Toronto.

The first purchase was a Sanyo DTB-H260F.You actually mean a Samsung DBT-H260F right? ;)

Marvel with analog ending 2011 why don't you point a uhf antenna toward Buffalo/Toronto and a VHF antenna towards Barrie joined with a VHF/uhf combiner.My VHF antenna is at Barrie and combined with my UHF antenna toward Toronto.
Does CKVR come in clearly for you? And 2011 is quite a long way ahead (for me anyways). Well, I wanted the Hamilton stations aswell as CHEX through Peterborough, so I'm not sure if I should get 2 more smaller antennas for those yet. What size is your VHF antenna anyways?

Marvel CKVR analog 3 comes in okay but not perfect in Mississauga.The Hamilton stations should be on Digital within a year hopefully.I doubt chex will come in well.The Hamilton stations come in okay with the antenna pointing at Barrie.

So when all the stations go digital, will they all be in the UHF range, or will we still have some in the VHF range?