I took the liberty of trying to summarize the details known so far for this “can’t record after Shaw VOD upgrade” issue. I will be calling Shaw to try and get more details, but at this stage they are not willing to do much. They did disable VOD on my box, with my agreement, but it made no difference. I still cannot record any channels whatsoever. Perhaps the moderator and others with expertise can comment on the Macrovision idea, or anything else that will help. I am new to this technology and playing catch up.

lhsonic

vancouver
6200
Sony RDR-GX7 DVD Recorder
s-video connection from STB to dvd-rec
Cannot record any channels from Shaw, not HD, analog, or digital
Appears to be strictly a traditional TV and DVD-REC setup, no computer involved in the connection or recording path.


Ppat (that’s me)

vancouver
6200
panasonic dmr-e85h
s-video connection from STB to dvd-rec
Cannot record any channels from Shaw, not HD, analog, or digital
Previous to the VOD upgrade could record all channels, no channel limitations.
This is a traditional TV and DVD-REC setup, no computer involved in the connection or recording path.


Sinek

Edmonton
6200
Toshiba RD-X32SU
Cannot record any channels from Shaw, not HD, analog, or digital
Points out that 5c=0 on all the channels they checked. So HDCP should not be an issue since this means “copy always”.


Aborro

States he/she is having the same problem and cannot record
Not clear what type of equipment being used here or when the problem started.


Beefgravy

States he/she can record 308 – 310
Not sure what type of equipment being used here or when the problem started.



57 – Moderator

points out that something is amiss, as 5c copy protection should not affect RF-coax, composite video, or s-video, when recording over the air broadcasts.
Suggests that perhaps the dvd-rec is sensing macrovision protection and supplies the do not record message.


Jeffnoone

Commented that 307 – 310 in vancouver is 5c enabled.
Jeff appears to be recording to a MAC. So maybe the computer connection and DVD-REC have different capabilities allowing some recording of HD.
Suggests that it looks like they have implemented macrovision on analog outputs, and partial 5C=1 on some HD boxes
Suggests it seems to coincide with a phase of the VOD rollout – states “hopefully one of the impacts of VOD will not be an inability to make copies of programs we are allowed to legally copy for personal use.”
I (ppat) agree that this appears to be the very case for at least a few of us and I suspect a lot more as users with the 6200 and an external dvd-rec will discover the same as they try to record over the next few weeks. I imagine a lot have not tried recently due to Christmas, or just do not have Internet access and/or knowledge of how to participate in this type of forum.

Technically speaking, isn't 5c=1 considered 'illegal' in Canada? I thought the courts interpretation was Canadians have the right to use VCR's on broadcasts.

Speculating here, but I imagine most cable/satellite operators aren't well versed in this, so they just accept new software revisions from their USA-based providers and don't check or even know how the 5c works. That's certainly the case here.

I think this is something we need to make sure the cable and satellite companies are aware that "5c=1" is not compliant with Canadian law.

All they need to do is specify "5c=0" for all Canadian versions of their software. It costs them nothing, all we have to do is make them more aware.

The summary is a good idea but I think the posters should update. I had 5C=1 on 308-310 in Vancouver last week, but it is all 5C=0 right now.

heres my update for today.

weird issue as of today is that i cant record from YSNHD anymore through forewire even though 5C=0 ??

they must be adding more encryption layers in or something as this wasnt a problem yesterday.

channel 310 is still set to 5C=1 and was the only channel i couldnt record but now TSNHD is using something new by the look of it.

i find this all very amusing and stupid at the same time.

i have the 6412 PIII STB by the way and in Vancouver westend.

9.50 - 10PM PST Tuesday 20th

6200 box
301-307, 309 all recordable to mac, 307, 309 are 5C=0
308 is 5c=1, not recordable
310 is 5c=1, not recordable

Yes, this is FW
North Shore Vancouver

When doing your summaries, you need to include the connection type. I'm assuming the connection for Jeffnoone is firewire, but I could be wrong.

STB -
Connection -
Recording device -
Location -
5C settings/channel -
Can/cannot record -
"message" provided on display if recording is not allowed -

10PM PST Tuesday 20th

6412 box
301-307, 309 all recordable to mac, 307, 309 are 5C=0
308 is 5c=1, not recordable
310 is 5c=1, not recordable

i rebooted my STB and these are exactly how mine are now. TSNHD is encrpyted again on firewire dammit..

1020PM Tuesday 20th

6208
307-310 all 5c=0
I have not tried actual recording, but
I have a partial ready PC recording setup near the 6208, will get around to Firewire recording via PC, but I assume it will work (it used to with this 6208, but havent got it resetup after reinstalling Windows)


North Shore Vancouver

Edit
I was able to get the Firewire PC setup going, with the 6208, I can FW record 307-310 at 1040PM PST Tuesday 20th

nope still 5c=1 on my 6412 as i posted above.

Some Corrections and more details about my situation

-----Old Info----------------------------
Sinek

* Edmonton
* 6200
* Toshiba RD-X32SU
* Cannot record any channels from Shaw, not HD, analog, or digital
* Points out that 5c=0 on all the channels they checked. So HDCP should not be an issue since this means “copy always”.

----------------------------------------

my 6200 is connected to my RD-X32SU via composite cables.

I can't really comment on the 5C settings in the 3xx channel range , I don't use those because I don't currently have a HDTV but all the channels I did check in the <75 range had 5C=0
I CAN record when the source is straight analog cable, I can NOT record anything that comes from the digital box , HD or not, all channels are protected from 1 to 310 (didn't test any higher)

I have a very strong feeling there is something that causes the channels to get a macrovision signal when going thru the digital box. as a test I hooked up my ps2 to my DVR and tried recording while playing a commercial DVD and I get the exact same message " source content is protected , recording will now stop ". From my understanding of the technology all comercial dvd disks have some kind of signal in the background invisible to us. Again, from my understanding, every recording device or software sold in the US and Canada (and possibly elsewhere) has to by law look for that signal and when it sees it block the recording. this technology is very old and is also present in VCR tapes , when you tried to copy a tape from one vcr to another the copy would be all scrabled, these days instead of scrambling the image the recording devices just stop working.

My next step is to get one of these after the holidays if its not fixed by then.
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1111286&Sku=S120-2008
From what I have read about that device you plug it between your copy protected source and your recorder. Its supposed strip the macrovision signal from composite cable for both DVD and VHS, hopefully it would also take care of the signal comming from my 6200.

As of 12:50 AM, Wednesday 21st

DCT-6200
Firewire, S-Video
Media Center 2005 PC
Burnaby
301-307, 309 -- 5C=0
308, 310 -- 5C=1 (cannot record via Firewire)

Update:

I can now record all channels (analog and digital) via S-Video and Firewire on my MCE 2005 PC after updating the driver for the Hauppauge PVR-250 tuner card to a non-WHQL driver. Like others, my inability to record any channels started with the VOD update. Thankfully, this driver (1.18.21.22252) doesn't appear to be susceptible to Shaw's Macrovision implementation. Unfortunately, this doesn't bring any solace to owners of DVD recorders. :(

Now it's 308 and 310 that are 5C=1. Could it be a Bell thing? They're insisting?

TSN-HD (308) is now 5C=1 in Edmonton as well.

A friend of mine from work just called, who has the same problem. He can't record after the Shaw VOD update. Apparently he talked to Shaw today and they told him they are getting more callers now with the same problem. Shaw told him it is under investigation now, and that Shaw expects to be able to resolve this for customers with DVD recorders, but it may take a while until they find the problem and update their system.

This is good news I think for all of us. I am going to keep in touch with my buddy at work and give this some time. If I don't hear anything in the next week I'll check to see what I can find out.

You may want to send them the link to this thread. ;)

I have some concerns in broadening knowledge of this situation and the related arguments on right to record. There are essentially two issues here:

1)what they are doing technically (invoking 5C on some channels for FW out, and presumably a variant of Macrovision on all digital channels for analog out)

2)the "rights" argument - not only what can be recorded analog, but also what digital signals can be recorded digitally - I would agree with the early suggestion that the 5c=1 status of 308 and 310 may be due to this

Certainly the media industry and their lawyers seem to fire off letters quite readily on flimsy grounds

Yes, complain to Shaw re problems with analog recording (which they have to fix) and also firewire recording (which they dont officially support), but would not involve them actively in our discussions (which they may read anyway)

Peter

I Really Really hope this girl is just unknowledgable about the whole issue and that they will fix it, i'll just copy and paste the last e-mail she sent me.

--------------Email message from shaw------------------------

Hello -Name Removed-,

Thank you for choosing Shaw Technical Support.

After doing some checking into this issue it appears that there was a software update done during this time, this update allowed our High Definition Digital customers using the model 6200 Digital box to view video on demand movies. It seems from the information that we have received that the broadcasters also did there own upgrade to their channels. The issue is related to Digital Rights Management and how programming may now be secured.

Evidently if you are using a device to record that is not HDCP compliant you will receive this message, HDCP = High Bandwidth Digital Content

In addition from the investigations that have gone into this issue Shaw is not able to make any changes to this update as it was not instigated by our company.

We have been informed that you will receive this message for any program in the system that has copy right protection added to it unless you have a HDCP compliant device with which you are doing the recording.



The other dvr boxes that Shaw carries are HDCP compliant and we have had no complaints of this kind from any customers with these boxes. You may want to wait a bit and see if more information comes out about this issue as we have evidently been receiving a number of complaints via the telephone, but the information that we have on the upgrade that was done by the broadcasters is minimal.



We apologize for the confusion with this issue, it is something that we are getting feedback on but it is coming in slow as we are in the early stages of figuring out exactly what was done to programming.



We hope this information has been useful to you. When sending a reply to us, please remember to include all previous correspondence. Thank you for choosing Shaw!



Catherine



E- Mail Support Team
Shaw Internet Service



Should you require further assistance in the future, you may reach us via any of the mediums listed below:


Web: http://support.shaw.ca
Email: edm.help@sjrb.ca
Telephone:
Edmonton (780) 490-3590
Red Deer (403) 340-6420
Hinton 1 (800) 465-6905

--------------------------------------------------------------------


If this is the stance shaw is taking with this problem i am very disapointed, i'll probably end up canceling my service with them if its not fixed within 2 months, this whole DRM thing is leaving a very very bad taste in my mouth , its bad enough with sony installing root kits in every computer that happens to play some of their music and now basicly as soon as they cut the analog signal my less than 1 year old video recorder is useless. You know what, if the content producers so badly want to stop me from watching their products maybe i just will, there's barely anything worth watching anyway.

Sinek,

It may not be a Shaw issue. The only two stations that have 5c encryption turned on are the two Bell stations (CTV and TSN). All others are 5C=0. It could be that BGM is requiring Shaw to turn on 5C or that Bell is doing it at the source (not technically savvy enough to know). In either case (if, in fact it is a Bell thing ... not a Shaw thing) then the bitching should go to BGM.

Sinek,

It may not be a Shaw issue. The only two stations that have 5c encryption turned on are the two Bell stations (CTV and TSN). All others are 5C=0. It could be that BGM is requiring Shaw to turn on 5C or that Bell is doing it at the source (not technically savvy enough to know). In either case (if, in fact it is a Bell thing ... not a Shaw thing) then the bitching should go to BGM.

my problem isnt with just those 2 channels though , its EVERY channel that i can't record from , i don't even watch tsn or ctv

Looks like the channels 308 and 310 are part of a DRM issue, but is the CSR not using DHCP in the wrong context? DHCP limits where the video signal can be sent
Is the 5C issue part of DHCP? - I thuoght it was a separate form of protection specific to FW
So this issue may rest at another door, even allowing for CSR error
I would nearly prefer the USA situation where the current consumer rights are clear regarding HD digital signals, which are also OTA (altho Draconian things in the works in USA)
Do we actually have a law on this in Canada, apart from implied common law?

Still looks like Shaw applied Macrovision protection to all digital channels as part of firmware/software upgrade disabling analog recording (cant believe all the various channel owners applied it simultaneiously) - but CSR ducks that issue

The comment about it affecting 6200 only also seems to be incorrect, as posts indicate 6412 effected