For the antenna to get -- cm4228hd vs the new db-8 the ratings given are kinda strange.

The new db-8 antenna is the only one avalible I think, but is it really better than the new cm4228? especially with the cm upgrade now ? some people think this is not so from the threads I have read .

I think that the cm4228hd with the upgrade mods is a better antenna than the new db-8 , as this is a gut feeling , my reasoning runs along the lines that I can't mod the new db-8 to a standard higher than that set up by the manufactuer , the new db-8 29% better than the old one ? or is that just sales hype?

the cm4228hd with upgrade mod therefore defaults to "the most likley antenna to get "
on my list ... or is my thinking flawed ?

The new db-8 antenna is the only one avalible I think, but is it really better than the new cm4228? especially with the cm upgrade now ? some people think this is not so from the threads I have read .

Have a look, here

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html

Not sure if these sims were done post or pre mods

To get the US PBS transmitters you have two characteristics to look at. Gain at channels 23 and 38 (as much as possible) and width of the gain lobe (as narrow as possible). Remember your concern about gain is at the above mentioned channels but your concern about the beam (gain lobe) width is at the channels where the HC's transmitters are. In other words, you have to determine how much of the signal you will get from Norwood when pointing at Norwood and at the same time you have to ensure that the signals from HC will not swamp the pre-amp or the tuner (with the antenna pointing at Norwood). From the plots in the above link the two looks pretty much on par with the same beam width at channel 30, did not see any figures for other channels.

If you can do some mods and and if one is less expensive than the other then you also have to consider that. Maybe ask these questions in the general OTA section then more folks with experience with these antennas can comment.

Just a reminder to anyone on this thread in Ottawa - the next 4 days will be ideal for DXing and short range DXing, now that the weather is stable, ESPECIALLY in the early morning hours between 5 AM and 8 AM. Watertown was very strong this morning ( I happened to wake up for a few minutes and looked at the TV) with WWTI and WPBS (and I assume WWNY although I did not check) at 100% - and maybe even as much as 25 dB above the marginal required signal for reception. Also, I had analog channel 28 with nearly no snow at all, although I thought Fox 28 had switched to digital - but there was something on 28 nonetheless. WROC is a good one too - from Rochester - which was very strong as well.

Also, I had analog channel 28 with nearly no snow at all, although I thought Fox 28 had switched to digital - but there was something on 28 nonetheless.

WNYF operates on 28 in both Massena and Watertown.
WNYF-CD on 35 is not operational yet, AFAIK. When it does go on the air, I believe that 28 analog will stay on as a companion analog channel until the LPTV transition is complete.

Note that United Communications has an app pending to convet 28 MAssena to digital on channel 18 from WNPI's old antenna in South Colton. The legal reason for this - 'displacement' by IC's allocation of channel 28 to Cornwall. (Not that the allocation is new, BTW...)

The app is still pending. The ERP is 4 kW, so expect it to come in 10 dB less than WNPI-DT on 23 at 40 kW from an adjacent tower comes in today.

TVL:

re: WNYF - I just saw the app - even at 4 kW -- the 2000 feet above sea level will put their signal into Ottawa more than anything else. Only problem is 27 Omni 1st adjacent

PS this morning pretty lackluster but around 7:30 AM WWTI and WPBS were 100% just like the morning before. Earlier around 6 AM there was only WSYT which was wildly jumping between 68% and 100% with the occasional drop out around 40%. All the other Syracuse channels were 0%. Maybe they were off the air?

e: WNYF - I just saw the app - even at 4 kW -- the 2000 feet above sea level will put their signal into Ottawa more than anything else. Only problem is 27 Omni 1st adjacent

It will come in at 10 dB below WNPI 23, since it is using the old analog antenna for WNPI 18. If you use TVFool's Pending option on the TV Maps feature, you can see the Longley-Rice predictions for the pending apps for WCFE, WNPI, and WNYF-LD.

Not sure why you think it will interfere with 27 from 18. There will be someone in Ottawa on 17 post-transition. Is that what you mean? True, if someone broadcasts on 17 from HC, that could cause more problems for most Ottawa viewers than the 22 and 24 interference causes for 23.

28 was their analog channel in Massena. The whole reason they get to move to 18 is the legal fiction that someone someday will actually use IC's allocation of 28 in Cornwall. I'm suspecting they want to move to 18 because:

- they want to save money by using an existing installation (tower, feedline, and antenna)

- perhaps the antenna is the original one from 38 years ago, and is not wideband enough to accomadate channel 28 instead of its designed channel of 18. Don't forget that TVO/CBC installed a new transmitting antenna on Camp Fortune to accommodate 20, 22, 24, and 25 to replace TVO's old single channel antenna for 24.

- displacement applications for LPTVs can occur anytime, and do not need to wait for an application window.

TVL-"There will be someone in Ottawa on 17 post-transition. Is that what you mean?"

No I forgot they were moving from 28 to 18 - Depending on who in Ottawa is going (or not going) to 17 will make a difference. In the meantime, if they get it up and running it would be pretty reasonable to pick up in a lot of places (except of course where I live where I am blocked in only that direction so the only PBS I normally get are 38 WCFE and 41 WPBS and rarely 23 WNPI)

BTW Rochester was very strong last night (90%) with WUHF and WROC solid signals just after midnight. WGRZ Buffalo was hovering around only 10% - 30% so it was not watchable. Absolutely nothing at all tonight, not even Watertown.

11:50 update - I dont know why the last 30 minutes would have made a difference, but Watertown is now booming in. WWTI at a solid 100%.... also Rochester WROC, WUHF and WXXI at 100%

Hi,

Suffering from complete information overload on here...I'm suprised there isn't a sticky I, or others, who just want a quick answer :)

I'm just looking for a simple solution to get HDTV OTA.

I have an HDTV that has no attachments to connect a digital antenna.

So, where can I get:

-a decent antenna
-what box do I need to connect it too that can output HDMI to my HDTV
-what box store can I buy it at.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

There are no "quick answers" since there are so many variables, however, there are several stickies on the topic - See the OTA FAQ & Knowledge base for a start:

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=81

And then see the reception results thread for your particular location to see what others are using (with success).

Please put your location into your UserCP Profile (location) to let us know where you are and also provide us with the make/model of your HDTV.


The following post is also useful for those new to the forum - FAQs, Search Tips, Optimization, etc:

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=57741

For the antenna to get -- cm4228hd vs the new db-8 the ratings given are kinda strange.

The new db-8 antenna is the only one avalible I think, but is it really better than the new cm4228? especially with the cm upgrade now ? some people think this is not so from the threads I have read .

I think that the cm4228hd with the upgrade mods is a better antenna than the new db-8 , as this is a gut feeling , my reasoning runs along the lines that I can't mod the new db-8 to a standard higher than that set up by the manufactuer , the new db-8 29% better than the old one ? or is that just sales hype?

the cm4228hd with upgrade mod therefore defaults to "the most likely antenna to get "
on my list ... or is my thinking flawed ?
Geostar, I have started to look into a similar setup that I hope to eventually mount on the roof in an attempt to get some of the US stations. To me the secret is not only the absolute gain but the ability look past Herbers Corners to those weak stations - My tvfool lists something like a 75dbm difference between the strongest HC channel (27) and WNPI on real channel 23 only 25 degrees away. For me WCFE is directly behind HC so I am not even going to bother to pull that one in. For WNPI the antenna will have to ensure that when it is pointing at WNPI the gain at 25 degrees must be much much lower (something in the order of -30dB if I should take a guess - still have to do the calcs to see what is needed). I have not seen a DB8's gain polar plot vs frequency but from other 8 bays that I have seen there are quite a few strong side lobes that comes and goes as the frequency changes - some of these lobes are only a few dB weaker than the on axis gain i.e not good. I am thinking that maybe a channel selective Yagi or something like a 93XG combined with a low noise amp (1dB) is the way to go in this case. Have not seen the polar plots for the 93XG but as soon as I have found them, I will post the link for some futher discussions.

RamKat-

I was just looking in an old arrl book in the antenna section, and a 12 element yagi they have pictured has its first null (-26 dB less than on-axis gain) at about 38 degrees off the axis either to the left or the right. Also, the gain only drops by 1 dB at 13 degrees off-axis, which means if you were to have such an antenna, and point the first null at HC, then you would get a differential gain of +25 dB toward WNPI compared to HC, at 25 degrees away from the null.

They have a 33 element yagi whose first null is only 20 degrees off, but that would be a massive antenna.

RamKat-

I was just looking in an old arrl book in the antenna section, and a 12 element yagi they have pictured has its first null (-26 dB less than on-axis gain) at about 38 degrees off the axis either to the left or the right. Also, the gain only drops by 1 dB at 13 degrees off-axis, which means if you were to have such an antenna, and point the first null at HC, then you would get a differential gain of +25 dB toward WNPI compared to HC, at 25 degrees away from the null.

They have a 33 element yagi whose first null is only 20 degrees off, but that would be a massive antenna.
Thanks GerryB :cool:- In the end I believe a narrow band Yagi will be the way to go - that is another way to lessen the chance of out of band signals interfering. +25dB would probably be as good as one could get. I will get a few designs into 4NEC2 and start modelling and check the antenna response for each of the current HC channels. I agree with the comment on the size of a 33 element - especially in our type of weather conditions:(

Yagis are good antennas for what youre trying to do. I use one because my apartment couldnt fit the kind of antenna Mark is using in Nepean, although Id rather have his setup. But one of the benefits, at least, is that my 8 element homemade yagi is only about half a pound in weight, so I could get it up nice and high without much windload if I didnt live in an apartment building.

Just watching WWTI now as it is late enough - a show that seems a lot like CBC's Dragon's Den but they call it Shark something... lol with 2 of the same guys from the CBC show.

Hi

when I looked at info for the db-8 vs cm4228hd I looked at this site http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html

If you read carfully you can see he examines both these antenna , This is the only bit of info on them I can find , is there more ?

also the 93xg antenna ? I can only find info on the 91xg from antenna direct, Do you guys have more info on the 93
I'd like to get a plan together for pbs reception from Ottawa

;) thanks

My tvfool lists something like a 75dbm difference between the strongest HC channel (27) and WNPI on real channel 23 only 25 degrees away.

Don't forget that TVFool is compleetly useless these days for Canadian stations since it is primarily using post transition allocations. Post transition 27 could eaily be 10 if not 20 dB less than TVFool estimates since they are assuming that the antenna will be 100 m above the current antenna (which is 85m above the top of the tower) and 65 times more powerful than it currently is. In reality it will almost certainly be much weaker.

BTW. Differences in dBm should be reporded in dB as the results are no longer reffernced to 1mW (0dBm = 1mW).

Hi,

I was wondering if I'm missing something here...I can get most analog channels from camp fortune (ctv, city, cbc, src,....) and digital (cbc,src,sun hd and sd)...I also get some analog channels like omni 1/2 from Manotick without too much diffculty but when it comes to omni 1/2 digital, I get nothing...(snr at 0 on my tuner). I use a CM4228, should I add an amp or something to get the digital omnis?

Also, what with global? I borrowed someone's amp (looks kinda cheap though...and set the FM trap to ON, but this barely made any difference). I thought this was broadcast from camp fortune but unlike the other channels, this one looks like crap... I know CM4228 is not specifically designed for vhf-low but still cbc on channel 4 looks WAY better than global on 6.

Thanks!

If I'm not mistaken, Global broadcasts from the physically lowest point on the tower compared to the other stations, and their ERP is quite low. Also, you may be better off with a simple dipole.

when it comes to omni 1/2 digital, I get nothing...(snr at 0 on my tuner).

People seem to be having problems with the Omni digitals.

I use a CM4228, should I add an amp or something to get the digital omnis?

How much cable is between your antenna and the TV and are you splitting the signal? Your tuner has a built-in amplifier so a pre-amp is only useful if:

You have a long cable run between the antenna and TV, which will weaken the signal before the amplifier,
You are splitting the signal, thus splitting the signal power between 2 or more tuners,or
The external amplifier isn't as noisy as the one built-in.


Also, what with global? I borrowed someone's amp (looks kinda cheap though...and set the FM trap to ON, but this barely made any difference). I thought this was broadcast from camp fortune but unlike the other channels, this one looks like crap... I know CM4228 is not specifically designed for vhf-low but still cbc on channel 4 looks WAY better than global on 6.

As moody said, CBOT-TV (channel 4) is much higer on the tower and has a much more powerful transmitter than CIII-TV-6. Depending on your location, you might be able to pick up CBOT-TV without any antenna, where as CIII-TV-6 is much more dificult to receive. Not only do you need an antenna that receives VHF-LO well, but FM interference will also cause problems.

is anyone using an antenna direct yagi 91xg to get signal from the pbs stations in the us?

or can a cm4228hd or an db8 get reception as well from roof top south ottawa round south keys?

can a cm4228hd or an db8 get reception as well from roof top south ottawa round south keys?

I have a bow tie M4 (side by side) kind of like a db8 and I can get PBS from inside my attic, mostly early evening to late morning.

So I am sure that outside and since you are in the south end you are closer to the transmitter so you should be able to get it.