That pretty much sums up your country current policy. If I were American I would be ashamed at this moment, not proud. Hope your empire won't end up like other ones.


For the sake of where you live and what benifits you have, you better hope to high hell that empire stays just the way it is. Because if they go down we go with 'em.

Actually I heard an expert some time ago saying that the US Empire is currently in decline and another is on the rise... can you guess which country? Starts with a C and ends with an A. :)

He said it would take 50 to 100 years for the US to collapse as an empire.

Columbia?

OK, we're drinking waaay too much coffee then. :D

One further bit of information to add to the mix. When training to become a terrorist, among the different techniques to take out as many infidels as possible is a section on captivity. It involves lying about your imprisonment. There is actually a 'manual' on this. You're supposed to claim you were tortured, among other things. And if they are willing to kill themselves to get at the infidels, do you think it's in the realm of possibility that they might cut/hurt themselves to make it look more realistic? After all it says so in the manual.

Exactly....we're listening to suspected terrorists...there has to be some reason they are being detained...

It seems some people confuse things here.
- Guantanamo Bay is not about torture. It's about detaining people a few years without accusing them of anything. This practice has also been confirmed in Iraq and Afghanistan.
- The torture was proved in Abu Ghraib prison where the prisoners where not terrorists or accused of terrorism. Also there is strong evidence that suspects are being sent to other countries to be tortured (like Uzbekistan).
So it's not about listening to suspects.

And to be fair, everyone needs to admit that the US military has killed a lot more civilians than the terrorists, so they are as dangerous as the terrorists for civilians. There is a difference, the US military is not targeting them specifically (although not all agree about that - check the case with the Italian journalist released by terrorists who was injured by US military in her way to the airport), the civilians killed by the US military are "collateral damage".

For the sake of where you live and what benifits you have, you better hope to high hell that empire stays just the way it is. Because if they go down we go with 'em.

I too hope they will not go down, I hope they will become a country that respects human-rights and other countries (and, why not, a more democratic country where the one with the most votes becomes president, and with more than just 2 corporate controlled political parties).

And to be fair, everyone needs to admit that the US military has killed a lot more civilians than the terrorists, so they are as dangerous as the terrorists for civilians.

Not to be arguementative, but how many civillians have been killed by US forces in Iraq? I'm curious about the numbers.

Hammer Joe is is right about China, they will expand to fill thier need for resources exactly like imperial Japan of the 1930's. The only difference is they're not relying soley on a military stucture as much as an econimc one.

That beast will need to be taimed soon or they will easily retake Tiawan and what ever lese they want in less than 20 years.

And Ken0042 it ranges from 10,000 to 100,000.

China is already causing raw materials to trend upwards in price. This inflationary effect is because of their growing economy. The problem in dealing with China is they see human rights as a western thing,(maybe they're right) as well as copyright law, patents and anything else that can be reverse engineered.

How come Greenpeace and human rights watchdogs spend so much more time on the U.S. when China has such a deplorable record. Because in the U.S. you don't get arrested, beat up or shot for protesting. Also the state run media doesn't give you much time. Notice there is no terrorism to speak of in China. Because the terrorists aren't stupid. They don't want to get into the hands of an angry Chinese prison warden.

While we are on the subject of countries violating human rights..... Australian refugee camps..... (as an ex aussie I bow my head in shame over that one)

China is already causing raw materials to trend upwards in price. This inflationary effect is because of their growing economy. The problem in dealing with China is they see human rights as a western thing,(maybe they're right) as well as copyright law, patents and anything else that can be reverse engineered.

How come Greenpeace and human rights watchdogs spend so much more time on the U.S. when China has such a deplorable record. Because in the U.S. you don't get arrested, beat up or shot for protesting. Also the state run media doesn't give you much time. Notice there is no terrorism to speak of in China. Because the terrorists aren't stupid. They don't want to get into the hands of an angry Chinese prison warden.

The Chinesse record is much worse than US. You can check each country on the Amnesty International site. And speaking about terrorism in China you'll find out that there actually is. Sort of. It's a whole nation that no one has heard before and that is part of China and they call them terrorists because they kinda want to be free. A sort of Chechnya.

I don't know why some people constantly equate "Proud to be American" with "I support fully all actions/decisions of my government/military". But anyway, I'm not going to address most of your post because a lot of it was incoherent. But as for "they must have been doing something to get arrested"....try going a google search for "Camp Iguana". They had 13-year olds in there...how much of a risk do you really think these kids were? And remember, I'm not talking about risk to US soldiers--I'm talking about risks to US national security, which is presumably the reason why these people are being held in the manner they are in the first place.

Why do I support my government because I can and because I can question their decisions in public unlike China where you get arrested for it. Just because I support my country does not mean I agree with everything my country has done. But at least my country has tried to do something to combat terrorism. I would rather support the USA than a country that does not allow you to stand up and protest. That IS the best thing about the US. Why do so many people immigrate to the US? Answer me that if we are so bad.

If you do read my comments you have addressed my comment about kids that the terrorist are using to do the dirty work. If a 13 year old goes down Yonge Street in Toronto and starts shooting a gun at police and inocents. Your telling me that the police should not arrest him. Please. And before you counter, yes it is the same. And yes, National Security (ie sovereity) and risk to US soldiers or US embassys are all the same.

You keep bringing up all these Camp Iguana and other camps. Who are your sources... what are their reputations? What are their creds? If you tell me Amnesty I am going to laugh!

Exactly....we're listening to suspected terrorists...there has to be some reason they are being detained...

So you probably think Maher Arar was rightfully deported to Syria, right? I mean, he must be guilty of something!

http://www.cfrb.com/content/cp_article.asp?id=/global_feeds/CanadianPress/NationalNews/n060145A.htm

"So you probably think Maher Arar was rightfully deported to Syria, right? I mean, he must be guilty of something!"

Our government is just as guilty as the US on that one. Lets be careful where we toss our stones now.

Our government is just as guilty as the US on that one. Lets be careful where we toss our stones now.

Absolutely, but the point was that assuming "there has to be some reason they are being detained" is very weak and here's one case that defeats the belief.

So you probably think Maher Arar was rightfully deported to Syria, right? I mean, he must be guilty of something!

http://www.cfrb.com/content/cp_article.asp?id=/global_feeds/CanadianPress/NationalNews/n060145A.htm

Was he in terrorist training camps back a couple of years ago? I believe I did hear that or that he attended a meeting that had terrorist speaking (someone like Osama or his people). If that is incorrect let me know cause if he did attend that meeting then I feel that he could have been converted to a terrorist/sleeper (I am not saying he did only he could have) and he could have been trying to get into the country. If that is the case then yes, deporting was the correct choice. Getting torchered is not ok, if he is innocent? If a terrorist/sleeper get'em!

... If that is incorrect let me know cause if he did attend that meeting then I feel that he could have been converted to a terrorist/sleeper (I am not saying he did only he could have) and he could have been trying to get into the country. If that is the case then yes, deporting was the correct choice. Getting torchered is not ok, if he is innocent?...
This is where such discussions become a problem. We are hypothesizing about absolutes. When you are a customs agent, security guard, police officer, border patrol or whatever, you deal in possibilities. There's a _chance_ that a person _might_ be a threat. What do you do? If you choose right, then you never really know it. If you choose wrong, people either die or someone's rights gets violated.

You have a guy in front of you. US intelligence is telling you he is a possible terror threat. He is telling you he is an innocent student (or whatever). If you let him in the country, he might blow up a building or kill someone. If you send him back, he might be tortured or killed. What do you do?

I don't blame Arar for being upset about his situation. I don't blame the US for being paranoid about everyone. But, I also don't blame Canada or whoever made the decision to send him back, despite the results because I don't know how anyone can make the right call all the time.

"I don't blame Arar for being upset about his situation. I don't blame the US for being paranoid about everyone. But, I also don't blame Canada or whoever made the decision to send him back, despite the results because I don't know how anyone can make the right call all the time."

Very well said.

"I don't blame Arar for being upset about his situation. I don't blame the US for being paranoid about everyone. But, I also don't blame Canada or whoever made the decision to send him back, despite the results because I don't know how anyone can make the right call all the time."

Very well said.

Indeed.

In this situation and the times we live in people will fall through the cracks, it's a unfortunate gaurentee that it will happen.