no history channel
no discovery channel
no nfl network
no outdoor life channel
no speed channel
no GOLF channel (thats a biggie)
no Bravo channel
no showcase channel
no food network channel (coming soon, but not yet...)
no HGTV (coming soon, but not yet...)
no womens network
no game show network
no 102.1 the edge[/QUOTE]

With the possible exception of 102.1 the edge (not sure about it), as far as I'm aware every single one of those channels is included in the Rogers VIP package.

according to Rogers website, the $58 and change package sensual was referring to
maybe im just blind
probably
go to the website, and check it out
straight from their website
check it out
i dont see alot of the channels you say they have
i think they have different levels for the VIP package, then one we were comparing was the $58 which is similar in price to the bell expressvu digital advantage package @ $54

National Geographic Channel
Biography Channel
CNBC
Headline News
National Geographic On Demand(Coming Soon)
HGTV On Demand (Coming Soon)
Food Network On Demand (Coming Soon)
Rogers Sportsnet Ontario
A&E
TVOntario
The Weather Network
Spike TV
Global
CablePulse24
CNN
OMNI.1
YTV
TLC
TV Guide
CBC Newsworld
Telelatino
CBC Toronto
W Network
MuchMoreMusic
Citytv Toronto
FOX Buffalo
History Television
CTV Toronto
VisionTV
The Comedy Network
CTS
PBS Buffalo
Teletoon
Rogers Television
CTV Newsnet
HGTV Canada
CH Hamilton
Star!
TBS
CBC French Toronto
Treehouse
SPEED Channel
TVOntario French2
TV5
BET
OMNI.2
TVA Montreal
Space
SUN TV
CPAC English
Family Channel
CBS Buffalo
RDI
MTV
NBC Buffalo
Ontario Legislature
The Score
ABC Buffalo
APTN
TVtropolis
The Shopping Channel
A-Channel Barrie/Toronto
MuchMusic
TVtropolis
Food Network
ShopTV Canada
TSN
ROBTV

In that very list you just posted are:

1) HGTV Canada (it's the _On_Demand_ version that is coming soon...which you can't get with Bell)
2) Food Network (as above it's the On Demand version that is coming soon)
3) W Network
4) History Network

For the rest, perhaps you're right...I was confusing VIP with VIP Ultimate...however I still see:

Showcase
Bravo!
Discovery Channel

in the regular channel tier as well (but not specifically listed in the VIP listing)

I always find Rogers' web site confusing to navigate though...

bells in no easier to navigate, have a look at it
they are both pretty similar
like coke and pepsi
i think they are multiple showcase channels, and the same with discovery
coming soon........ i have friends that have been told they will have high speed internet via DSL from bell, and that it will be coming soon (3 years and counting........)
coming soon is a great timeline, when you are selling something

I have seen Rogers in downtown Toronto and it was nice, saw it in Scarborough HD had way to much macroblocking, my buddy said it's not usally like that and they must have done changes, anyway from what I have seen in Toronto I would go with Rogers for the following reasons.

Better picture quality
On demand
No rain issues
Package for tv phone and internet

i am bundled with bell (internet, phone, satellite)
rain issues shouldnt be a major factor if installed properly (less down time than i had with rogers, due to outages)
better picture???? (ive had both, and bell is a better picture, with more HD)
on demand....... i wouldnt mind it, but would NOT pay for it, i have PVR's already........

I would go Bell all the way:

Better picture by far
NO analog channels
Great Hardware

I would go Bell all the way:

Better picture by far
NO analog channels
Great HardwareI don't understand how having analog channels is a negative - you are aware that Rogers has ALL channels available in digital, are you not? In addition channels 2-75 are available in analog as well. This means you can watch those channels on a TV without a set top box. You're saying that's a negative - please explain?

And for HD, many people believe Rogers has a better picture as they use the ful 19.2Mhz bandiwdth whereas BEV compresses some HD channels.

19.2 in consistency? Nope. Have yet to see digital cable give a more consistant overall picture then any sat company.Sorry.

Wow Bell compress pooh looking good? I have yet to see this, I can't even watch there poor picture on my tv thats why I dumped them, there audio sucks to, I never had there HD in my house but have seen it, lots of macroblocking not that good looking to my eyes, a good cable system will always put the pizza dish companys picture to shame, and just wait till Rogers can dump all there analog that will open up a lot of bandwidth.

19.2 in consistency? Nope. Have yet to see digital cable give a more consistant overall picture then any sat company.Sorry.Have you ever even seen digital cable - post 127 in this thread seems to indicate that you know not of what you speak. Are you aware of the issues with DirecTV in the US - many of their customers are complaining, some are suing, for example:As most of us in the audio/videophille world know DirecTV started cutting bit rate and then scaling down the resolution of their HD feeds to squeeze more bandwidth. This quickly became known as "HD-Lite" in videophille circles. The drop in bit rate resulted in exacerbated MPEG2 mosquito noise, and posterization. DirecTV's odd 1280x1080i feeds resulted in a softening of the image as the horizontal detail was lost and then stretched back out at the satellite receiver to 1920x1080Plus with cable you don't have to worry about signal dropouts caused by rain, snow, etc. I would buy that BEV has SD channels that look better but not HD channels. I actually have a TV with both an OTA tuner and a digital cable box and I notice almost no difference between OTA and digital cable and you must admit that OTA is the "optimal" picture using the full bitrate.

But why would you believe this now? As this (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=285775&highlight=%2219.2%22#post285775) thread shows there were several posts in Nov of 2005 that discussed why OTA and Rogers are superior to satellite - some very strong arguments were put forward which you seemed to ignore at that time as you disappeared from this thread after post 10. Once several posters explained why you were wrong you just disappeared from that thread.

You even had the audacity in that thread to state on 2005-11-12I was under the understanding that HD Cable is not as good as Satellite by a long shot, seeing Digital Cable is a analog signal and the box has a filter to digitally enhance it, where as Satellite is pure digital coming in, so the Cable HD is not close to being as pure as Satellite.This is so far from the truth that I don't even know where to begin?

Do you still believe that digital cable is an analog signal?

sensual poet, you are making it seem as though the channels that bell is missing, are worthy

I hope it is clear from the other posters that, website comparisons notwithstanding, you are misinformed about what Rogers VIP offers vs. Bell's Digital Essentials. Around $5 premium gets you a whack of highly rated channels -- plus On Demand programming -- which Bell doesn't offer. And that $5 can be reduced to $0 or even a savings over Bell with bundling. Further, the counter argument ought to be Bell has a whack of alternate channels and, of course, it doesn't.

And, yes, National Geographic, Turner Classic Movies, IFC, Showcase Action, BBC Canada and others are, in fact, channels worth watching which Bell doesn't include at about the same price.

As a straight-forward value proposition, Rogers has a strong edge, in my opinion. If I am going to spend close to sixty bucks a month for TV, Rogers offers me much more than Bell ExpressVu.

Have you ever even seen digital cable - post 127 in this thread seems to indicate that you know not of what you speak. Are you aware of the issues with DirecTV in the US - many of their customers are complaining, some are suing, for example:Plus with cable you don't have to worry about signal dropouts caused by rain, snow, etc. I would buy that BEV has SD channels that look better but not HD channels. I actually have a TV with both an OTA tuner and a digital cable box and I notice almost no difference between OTA and digital cable and you must admit that OTA is the "optimal" picture using the full bitrate.

But why would you believe this now? As this (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=285775&highlight=%2219.2%22#post285775) thread shows there were several posts in Nov of 2005 that discussed why OTA and Rogers are superior to satellite - some very strong arguments were put forward which you seemed to ignore at that time as you disappeared from this thread after post 10. Once several posters explained why you were wrong you just disappeared from that thread.

You even had the audacity in that thread to state on 2005-11-12This is so far from the truth that I don't even know where to begin?

Do you still believe that digital cable is an analog signal?
No never disappeared, just use my eyes, have seen both and I let my eyes make the decision, have some great friends and good buds in both side of the business, some work of Toronto in ExVu and some Cable, just listen to them and not some of the bias on here. I want to have the best possible picture that my eyes can see, with the budget that I have, and I do. I have been to enough installs to see both on both high quality and low quality hardware, and having said that, I haven't seen anything from a Rogers standpoint that would make me jump ship. Is ExVu a better value? Not sure, I am worried about picture, and in 7 years of Sat weather it be, ExVu or Direct TV, I bet I have lost complete picture maybe 7 or 8 times at best? and for a brief moment at best.

Is ExVu a better value? Not sure, I am worried about picture, and in 7 years of Sat weather it be, ExVu or Direct TV, I bet I have lost complete picture maybe 7 or 8 times at best? and for a brief moment at best.

Fair enough I suppose. But, then again, not a single cable customer, all across Canada, has ever had to climb on to his roof to re-appoint his dish or take a broom to clear off the snow. Not a single one.

Rogers has made a, to some, brilliant strategic alignment in offering about 20+ popular channels in its "base" price of VIP vs. Bell ExpressVu's "Digital Essentials" -- at something just under sixty bucks a month.

National Geographic, BBC Canada, Turner Classic Movies, Biography, BBC Kids, Discovery Health, CNN Headline News, Showcase Action, Speed Channel, Showcase Action, American Movie Classics, NFL Network are among the channels included in VIP which are NOT available at any price or trigger extra charges as they do with Bell ExpressVu satellite.

This doesn't even broach all the exclusive On Demand services from Rogers.

Suppose you like HGTV or Food Network or National Geographic or MTV or Treehouse and can't wait for the "appointment tv" schedule -- you want to see a program and you want it NOW. With Rogers, a click of the remote and you start the program NOW, on your schedule -- and skip through the boring bits to get to what you want to see -- or replay the best bits over and over again.

On Demand TV is NOT available on satellite. Bell ExpressVu or Star Choice.

Wanna watch a movie? Choose from 10 or 15 or perhaps 20 on Bell: but you better be there when it starts or you miss something -- and heavens don't go to the john or answer the phone or tuck the kids into bed -- and be sure to be there at the exact moment the film starts. Unless you don't mid missing the first ten minutes? And when the film -- 110 minutes later? -- is over, it's over.

Or why not try Rogers On Demand? A library of 3000 titles -- not 15 -- and available to start on YOUR schedule and available for 24 hours ... with pause, rewind, replay during that period. Start the movie at 8:17 and put the kids to bed at 8:33 and carry on at 8:51 ... and replay the best bits at 7 pm the next day.

I'm sorry, but as a value proposition, Bell ExpressVu is left far behind. In the dust, actually.

As for picture quality ... Bell confesses that it compresses its HD channels ... where it matters most ... and Rogers doesn't. EVERY channel on Rogers Ontario network (covering most customers) is a digital channel and at the peak quality delivered by the content provider -- and ought to be identical with anything Bell can provide. But, oh right, Bell compresses its HD channels. Plus if you like movies, Rogers has THREE 24/7 HD commercial free channels from TMN; Bell only offers two. Guess they think commercial free HD movies are not valued?

Bottom line: most consumers will be very happy with the PQ of any decent digital signal from Bell or Star Choice or Rogers. But Rogers delivers WAY more value with channels folks want to watch and On Demand programming -- including free stuff like Treehouse, OMNI Plus, MTV and NFL On Demand (and shortly National Geographic, HGTV and Food Network On Demand) -- which satellite cannot ever deliver. And it's on Rogers today.

Interesting read:

http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6425963.html?display=Breaking+News

Interesting read:

Yes, however it refers to the US, not Canada. Cable subs are growing Canada, partly due to the development of home phone. If you check out annual reports of Rogers, Videotron, Shaw and Cogeco, you'll find solid growth. Star Choice, on the other hand, is growing very slowly; Bell had a very quiet Q4 in 2006 adding just 12,000 subscribers to its 1.8 million -- so much for a huge rush (of new customers) to buy HD from ExpressVu.

The bottom line is that cable is not a standing target in Canada. Rogers is the most innovative of the major cablecos here having grown from 30 to 50% digital customers in the past two years. You may not like the VIP package but there is nothing quite like it from Bell. And On Demand is a "satellite killer", if one exists; with hundreds of free titles and whole stations like NFL Network, Treehouse and MTV in both "linear" and On Demand versions, there's always stuff to watch.

One poster complained that the On Demand versions of Food, HGTV and National Geographic haven't launched yet but I'd expect they'll be on tap soon and in the meantime the regular versions of the channels ARE included in the VIP package.

HGTV, Food, and National Geographic are available to ExpressVu subscribers as well, for free (using your style of free, with your digital essentials combo)
On demand, a satellite killer???
I doubt it
I dont know where you are getting your facts from my dear, but you are incorrect
feel free to visit the bell website, and you will see CLEARLY that the packages are very comparable, and USUALLY you get more for your money, than you would with rogers
if you want to talk about things in the future, why not talk about how bell will be releasing new mpeg4 receivers, that will allow for even more HD programming, (or you dont want to talk about stuff like that)?

Bell is the most innovative satco in canada, bar none, with their fantabulistic channel packages, most hd channels, BIGGEST PVR hard drive in the INDUSTRY

whats your view on Rogers cutting peoples driveways to replace improperly installed buried cable lines?
i'd love to hear that?
and how about "temp" lines, that are run haphazardly , with the cable lying on the grass, for someone to trip, and fall, possibly injuring themselves on?
i dont have exact figures, like you do (even if they are inacurate) but i doubt Rogers is killing satellite, as much as you would like people to believe
ive NEVER heard of a bell expressvu customer being told not to cut their grass, because they will cut their cable, and lose all of their services (internet/tv)
or be told, that, "well bob, seems the cable is bad, so heres what im gonna do"
"im gonna bury a new cable , say, about 2" under the grass, so make sure you never do any gardening, or ever any aeration, if you want to watch tv"
"then, im gonna take this here saw, to your new $4000 driveway, and cut it"
"i will patch it up, and it should look ok, till next year, then it will slowly start crumbling away, working its way up"
"we could do it properly, but hey, this is how we do business, we could care less about the damage to your driveway, just get it replaced"
" i mean, at least you dont have a satellite causing a leak in your roof, right?"
you are so biased it hurts
im not a big fan of either of the 2 parties here, and would gladly dispute any misrepresentations that people post about bell, so dont think i am just on you because i dont like that you work for rogers, if you were spouting the same inacurate info about bell, i would call you on that

HGTV, Food, and National Geographic are available to ExpressVu subscribers as well, for free (using your style of free, with your digital essentials combo)

He's merely stating that these channels ARE included in the VIP program, contrary to YOUR original statement that they weren't included.

On demand, a satellite killer???
I doubt it

Well, there's no doubt that it is a service that satellite CANNOT offer.

Bell is the most innovative satco in canada, bar none, with their fantabulistic channel packages, most hd channels, BIGGEST PVR hard drive in the INDUSTRY

The Rogers 8300HD has the same size PVR hard drive. In addtion you can get an add-on drive of up to 500 GB to expand your total storage to 660 GB -- can you do that with your 9200?

whats your view on Rogers cutting peoples driveways to replace improperly installed buried cable lines? <snip rest of quote>

I've never heard of Rogers doing any of the things you list here, so I won't and can't comment on them.

I also find it ironic that you're complaining about SensualPoet being "so biased it hurts"; your comments are pretty biased in the opposite direction in my opinion.

im sorry if i upset you sensual, i do apologize, it was not an attack against you, just wanted to call you out on your misleading info, my bad
i will refrain from posting anything negative about rogers, or anything that contradicts what you sell, i mean say about rogers
i thought this forum was for discussing rogers vs bell, i guess that only counts if i dont contradict you
FYI
cutting driveways IS a method used by rogers cable to install their buried cable lines, believe it or not(bell doesnt do this)
if anyone would like pictures, just ask, i have them on imageshack, for those interested.......

i_hate_tv

Please stop with the consdescending remarks. This forum is indeed for discussion about Rogers vs. Satellite (including Bell). The problem is that you posted _incorrect_ information to contradict someone else's post, and then got defensive when that was pointed out to you. For some reason you also didn't see fit to respond to my post that was directly above yours.

Contradiction is fine, as long as you can back up your contradicting view with _facts_ (or at least don't use _wrong_ facts to back up your view).