: Evolution/Creation: fact or fiction?
ATLANTA, Georgia (AP) -- A warning sticker in suburban Atlanta science textbooks that says evolution is "a theory, not a fact" was challenged in court Monday as an unlawful promotion of religion. The disclaimer was adopted by Cobb County school officials in 2002 after hundreds of parents signed a petition criticizing the textbooks for treating evolution as fact without discussing alternate theories, including creationism. (http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/11/08/evolution.debate.ap/index.html)
2004-11-08, 03:43 PM
Haven't we seen evidence of evolution in the history of our civilization? For example many birds no longer use their built in compases to fly south, rather they follow roads that us humans use instead.
Myself, I think there can be some common ground. Is it not conceivable that God did create the Earth and everything else, but because he is infinetely smart, he was able to implant genetic code onto those first single cell life forms so they would eventually evolve in complex life forms like us humans?
To me, that in itself shows how powerful God really is. To create a woman from a man's rib; we are within 100 years of being able to do that ourselves. Big deal. To implant a genetic code that will take a billion years to complete; that's one mighty powerful God!
Though still a theory, it is close to a fact in the scientific sense, the religious nut-bars will do anything to cling to there dogma.
ken0042 I like the track you take. The concept of evolution being gods rule seems reasonable but since it is not the exact word of the bible you will of course have to be killed.:D
Unequivocally, not a theory but FACT.
Scientists can prove it at a DNA level and in experiments have created new species of insects hence validating the FACT.
The evidence is overwhelming in every way shape or form.
and with the exception of the first few microseconds, scientists can essentially define what happened in the Universe for the last 13.7 billion years.
Interesting book these days called the Pagan Christ by Tom Harpur which is quite fascinating if you accept the conventional religious paradigm.
2004-11-08, 04:02 PM
Science/evolution should be taught in schools and creationism - Christian or other (Christians seem to forget that there are other gods and other modes of creation (http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_denom.htm)) - should be left for the home or place of worship.
2004-11-08, 04:02 PM
Without a doubt, I can say that evolution is how we got here.
Just at the simplest level...how humans evolved from a common anscetor that included apes has been somewhat worked out.
There has been experiments performed on another level that can recapitualte the "primordial soup" and generate simple biomolecules starting from inorganic compounds.
I think the science dealing with "comparative" genomics is quite well developed these days. I have a comparitive genome map comparing location of common genes in their respecitve chromosomes from organisms as diverse as sea sponge to human. There is a remarkable similarity between all of these organisms and how their genes are organized onto the chromosomes. In fact, it may be possible to map the evolution of these various species based on the divergence of their genes?
Another interesting story (now I will mention a theory) is that of the origin of DNA, which may have stem from the what is called the "RNA world hypothesis". In this hypothesis RNA alone is the genetic material and responsible for passing on genetic information but better yet, RNA would preceed protein and therefore carry out all biological roles from self replication to propagation. In addition, RNA would then have given rise to DNA, a more stable molecule and thus better suited to carry genetic information.
I think if there is an all powerful being it in Mother Nature. Everything she creates is absolute beauty and perfection. Just my opinion...one scientists opinion.
Here's the previous thread on the subject.
2004-11-08, 05:09 PM
To teach creationism, you must attend a school that is affiliated with a church, be it Judasim, Muslum, Christianity (Specifically but not limited to Catholicism), Hinduism.....or sunday school or the like. Creationism has it's place in the separate school system, not in the public realm where there are too many other people with other beliefs.
If anything, religion should be deemed the theory, and evolution a fact.
Try explaining the link between apes, chimps and humans, as well as all the other evolutionary things that other species have gone through, with the Bible.
I respect people that have a profund and close relationship with God. I think it is important for them to feel fulfilled with religion, and applaud them for it.
Not me. I consider myself a scientist. I always say prove it. While many cannot prove the existence of God, they point to miracles and such that science cannot explain. So be it. Something that exists that cannot be scientifically explained. But most things, like evolution, are explainable, and to ignore them, or say it's just a theory is incredibly ignorant in my opinion.
Taking so many courses related to the human body, it's hard to believe, that one person, almighty and knowledgable as he/she might be, could create the human body.
I'm sorry for the little (anti-)religion rant. But evolution, like Hugh said, is a fact. If it scares those parents so much, they should pull their children from that class, or send them to a school which better suits their beliefs, not put a sticker on a textbook beacuse they are scared of evolution.
2004-11-08, 05:19 PM
The Theory of Evolution is a misnomer.
Evolution is a fact; Natural Selection is a theory. Popular usage has just turned it into the theory of evolution.
2004-11-08, 05:29 PM
Haven't we seen evidence of evolution in the history of our civilization?
Evolution takes thousands of hears. Recorded history is what... 5000 years old? These things happen so slowly, that you'd never notice if there was a change. Who knows with ancient history... we still don't know how the pyramids were built, so we can't exactly look back to the differences in birds or lizards.
What exactly is an evolutionary change? I heard that Cod have adapted to avoid fishermens nets. Is that adaptation a step in Cod evolving?
It's a rather interesting topic. I bet that it's like an old movie or picture. You don't see the difference until you can look back and see what was.
Evolution takes thousands of years. Actually in species with short life span, evolution doesn't take thousands, or millions of years - it can take mere years, or months! It has been proven in Fruit Flies, viruses, etc.
For additional data, check out the following link, starting at page 2 - much discussion on Evolution.
2004-11-08, 08:12 PM
I kinda think along Ken0042's lines. Who is to say that both theories are not right? I choose to believe God created heaven and earth and we have evolved. In other words, take the early writings of the Old Testament with a grain of salt.
2004-11-09, 01:02 AM
you guys need to watch Penn and Teller's BULLSH!T eps 01-08 and eps 02-06
Or George Carlin's "invisible man" sketch.
2004-11-09, 08:48 AM
George Carlin on Religion (http://www.valleyskeptic.com/george.htm)
Y'know, Joe Pesci does look like a guy who can get things done! :-)
2004-11-09, 12:14 PM
If Adam and Eve were the first humans on Earth, then who could have witnessed it to record it as fact?
2004-11-09, 01:00 PM
Actually in species with short life span, evolution doesn't take thousands, or millions of years - it can take mere years, or months! It has been proven in Fruit Flies, viruses, etc.
Actually, that is not entirely true. Organisms that have short lifespans dont evolve quickly but they are capable of mutating quickly.
Take for example good old E.coli. We grow up this bacteria in the lab all the time, it is used for protein expression and many application of molecular biology. However, given that E.coli has a 20 minute grow cycle, from division to replication, it never evolves into another species. It is alway E.coli. Sometimes they can lose antibiotic resistence and sometimes gain it, but they never evolve.
So although mutations can lead to a new species, mutation and evolution are not the same.
So although mutations can lead to a new species, mutation and evolution are not the same.But they are. Evolution doesn't occur in a single lifetime. It occurs in generations, via "mutation".
2004-11-09, 02:00 PM
Yeah maybe....hmmm. I had to consult the wisest of all sources...the internet!
"In the broadest sense, evolution is merely change, and so is all-pervasive; galaxies, languages, and political systems all evolve. Biological evolution ... is change in the properties of populations of organisms that transcend the lifetime of a single individual. The ontogeny of an individual is not considered evolution; individual organisms do not evolve. The changes in populations that are considered evolutionary are those that are inheritable via the genetic material from one generation to the next. Biological evolution may be slight or substantial; it embraces everything from slight changes in the proportion of different alleles within a population (such as those determining blood types) to the successive alterations that led from the earliest protoorganism to snails, bees, giraffes, and dandelions."
I was thinking of evolution on even a broader scale such that species one leads to species two. But rather mutations in genetic code can be passed on and over time will or could lead to a new species or cause that species to evolve.
Our E.coli flasks though always contain E.coli. Even after hundreds of thousands of lifetimes they never evolve by my previous understanding...but they do mutate.
2004-11-09, 04:19 PM
Gosh, you guys must have a blast spiking each other's coffee with E.coli and other harmless pranks!