Well, it's finally here and I got my hands on one of these babies! I have read a lot of negative comments about this player (mostly on the AVS forum) so I am going into this eyes wide open. Actually, the place I bought if from is waiting to hear back from me (told them by Monday) as if I do return it they will use it as a demo model.


My equipment is as follows:

TV - Samsung DLP HLN617WX
AVR - HK 520
Amp - HK PA2000
Speakers – Mains – Polk RT800i,
Center – Polk CS400i
Surrounds – Satellite’s called ‘Solid’, designed by B&W
Old DVD player (for comparison) - Pioneer 563a Universal player

Connections:

Initial setup - DVI to DVI with the supplied cable and Component. The DVI cable supplied is a DVI-I cable. I also have a DVI-D Dual link cable that I tried next to see if there is any difference – and I couldn’t tell, both looked the same to me so I will use the one that came with the player. However, I had to unplug one and plug the other in, the operation took a couple of minutes, so I couldn’t do a direct a/b comparison. If anything, I thought the supplied cable was slightly ahead, but if it was it was only slightly.

Note that during initial setup the component screen will be a greeny red, and very washed out, but the screen is legible. During the setup, when you change your display to Comp-P and DVI, the screen will immediately clear up and look fine. If I connected an S-Video cable (the default) it would have looked good before the switch.

The DVI output on the Sammy is selected as 720P, the native resolution of my DLP set.

For DVD-A and SACD, I use an ICBM that I purchased from Outlaw audio. Therefore, all my speakers in both players (the 563a and the 841) are set to large. You need to send a full range signal into the ICBM otherwise it won’t work properly. For those of you that may not be familiar with this device, the ICBM sits between your Universal player and your receiver. Since most receivers cannot do bass management on the analog inputs for DVD-A and SACD, the ICBM (Integrated Controlled Bass Manager), as the name implies, sets the crossover points for the fronts, surrounds, center, and a 6th centre channel (that can be bridged to two rears if required) so it is sort of future proof. It also contains settings for your sub, including a toggle switch for 2nd or 3rd order crossovers, and a volume control. You can control the bass from 40 hz to 120 hz for all channels, or bypass a channel completely. Therefore, my review for the DVD-A and SACD between the two players may not be that informative as I have no way of knowing the internal crossover point differences between the two players. The Front (RT800i's) are crossed over at 60 hz, the center (CS400i) at 80hz, and the surrounds at 120hz.

For video, I am using the 563a in component progressive mode through component input 2 of my Samsung DLP RPTV.

Calibration:

I use the Sound and Vision H/T disk. It is not as complete as the AVIA, but I don’t really want to play with the service menu in my DLP TV – I wish I had an ISF calibrator in this area (Edmonton :()

General notes:
So, I've had it for 1 day so far. It took me about 10 minutes to get it all hooked up. I first watched snippets of Gladiator. This has real bad artifacts on the Pioneer 563a - suffers big-time clay face in the opening scene, the hand brushing through the wheat (?) fields, the hand has no detail whatsoever. The movie is a great transfer, but the DLP TV really shows its limitations. Gladiator, through DVI with the 841, well, I can count the hairs on the back of Russell Crowe's hand as it brushes the wheat fields. The next scene, as they prepare for battle, Russell Crowe has his head slightly bowed, lots of detail on his face. However, when he lifts it, clay face rears its ugly head again, though only 30% of his face, and no where near as bad as the 563a on Component.

I then tested with The Matrix Revolutions (opening scene when Trinity crashed through the security station on her motor cycle) and the first chapter of Finding Nemo. I then watched different scenes from Saving Private Ryan, Toy Story 2, Ronin (the whole movie), Monster Inc, LOTR- TTT, Men in Black SuperBit, and Led Zepplin (for 4x3 picture test). Overall, I am very very impressed with the Pic quality. There is absolutely no comparison to the Pioneer 563a, it blows the Pio out of the water.

The only DTS dropouts I have experienced so far is with Gladiator and LOTR-TTT. These drop outs are like little hiccups, but nevertheless are annoying. Maybe Samsung will come out with a firmware fix for it. I did switch to DD for LOTR-TTT, and I actually preferred the DD over the DTS! Don’t know if it is the way the Sammy sends the signal, or just the way the disk is recorded (extended edition disk). Usually, I prefer the DTS as it offers more subtle detail.

Next up is DVD-Audio and SACD. My expectations here are that it should be a wash - i.e. I should not be able to tell the difference. It looks like I am correct. After listening to my 3 SACD’s – DSOTM, The Police Every Breath you take, and the two channel Peter Gabriel ‘Shaking the Tree’, along with acoustic, classical, and Jazz from AIX records on DVD-A, Deep Purple with the London Symphony, and The Band ‘The Last Waltz’, I can’t really tell a difference. If anything, the Samsung 841 is a bit thinner but more detailed. Bear in mind here though I have to switch out a lot of cables, so it is about 5 minutes between each listening. This perceived difference may be my imagination. One thing for sure, the 563a will not play my RHINO DVD-A’s, The Last Waltz and Deep Purple. Well, it plays, but the audio drops out about two songs into the disc’s, they last 3 to 5 second at a time, and occur more frequently the longer I have the disc playing. So to be honest this is the first time I actually listened to the whole disc (the 841 exhibits no problems here).

Also, with DVD-A, my AIX titles, two of them, Laurence Jubers' Guitar Noir and AIX All stars Surrounded by Christmas – both of those discs froze on the ‘Welcome to AIX’ screen that first appears (much like a disclaimer about copying a disc does on a movie DVD). I have to hit the ‘menu’ button on the remote to get past that. The 841 does not have a problem at all, works fine on those disc too.

Conclusion:

Well, as if you couldn’t figure it out, the 841 is a far better player than the 563a is! Though, I did find some things I didn’t like:

Pros:

Picture – Since my HLN DLP model only has a DVI input, I figured no sense in waiting for the 941 since it is only HDMI, and I have read some HDMI to DVI conversion bugs in cheaper players exists. The Pic quality is outstanding – I now know why I spent so much money on this TV :)

Compatibility – Plays everything I have put on, with no freezes or skips (excluding the DTS dropouts). These include DVD-Video, DVD-Audio, SACD, DVD-R’s.

DAC’s – The Dac’s for SACD & DVD-Audio are great – at least no different then my
Pioneer 563a that I could discern. Maybe a bit more detail and a bit thinner than the 563a, but if there is a preference here, it would be for the 841

Cons:

DTS Dropout – Saving Private Ryan did not drop out for DTS. Makes me wonder if it is only certain discs that do this? I will keep a log and compare discs (who authored them, who produced them (fox video, etc) and if I find a correlation I’ll post again on this.

Build Quality – It has been reported that the inputs in the back are a bit flimsy. For sure they are not as secure as the 563a. When I plugged in my analog cables for the SACD/DVD-A playback, I could move the whole card quite easily. The player also runs very hot, so I would not put anything on top of it (my ICBM is underneath it)

Remote Control – A bit touchy. There is a sweet a spot and if you don’t find it trying to relay your commands to the player from the remote can be quite frustrating. However, there is a comfortable sweet spot I have found and once I locate it all is well.

If anything pops up, I’ll post again. But for the money (retail of $299.99) you won’t find a better universal player out there! In most cases, you should be able to pick this player up for anywhere from 249.00 to 279.00. I won’t tell you what I paid as it is irrelevant, let’s just say I paid full retail, and it is worth every penny! If you get one and pay less – then good for you!!!!!

Now, it's time watch another movie............

I wish I had an ISF calibrator in this area (Edmonton :()


What about Michael TLV from Calgary?

Saw this in the US last weekend for $199 US. (~$260 CDN)

Have you tried any 4:3 content? The 931 didn't handle it well, I'm hoping the 841 does better.

Have you tried any 4:3 content? The 931 didn't handle it well, I'm hoping the 841 does better.

Yep - that was my Led Zep test (the Two DVD set - it is in 4:3 mode). You just press the EZ View button on the remote to change the aspect ratio. It works great! This was one of the reasons why I did not buy the 931 when I got my DLP (the other two were DVD-A and SACD were not supported by the player).

What about Michael TLV from Calgary?

I've emailed him a couple of times (his company anyway) when I first got the TV. Never got a response back, and I'm not one to go begging.

Saw this in the US last weekend for $199 US. (~$260 CDN)

Yep - it's been in the US since May or June I think, and has since dropped a bit in price. But by the time you paid shipping and brokerage fees, it would end up more than $299. Plus, electronics bought in the US and shipped (or brought) here does not have a valid warranty. The company may honor it, but they are not obligated too (it even has the disclaimer in the manual/warranty card).

The price I paid was the suggested retail of $299, but I had some other credits coming to me from the store, so my price out of pocket was considerably less. Regardless, this player is well worth the $299 IMO if you're looking for a DVI out player (i.e. you have an HD ready display with a DVI input) that is also a universal player (the LG is not a universal - it does not play DVD-Audio or SACD, and I can't listen to any other disc's anymore other than these - I have been spoiled rotten :D).

I've read a lot on the Denon's (5900 and the new 3910) plus the Pio Elite 59, but at $1600 for the Pio, and about 2 grand for the 3910 and 3 grand for the 5900, well, I'm not throwing away my money on that. As once the HD-DVD players come out, these existing ones will become obsolete. I certainly don't mind throwing down $300 for a few years then relegating the player to the Intel 386 room, but 3 grand is a whole other story :)

FS has this on sale now for $299

They are calling it a high-definition DVD player: "up-converts a video signal to a digital high-definition video signal". Is this because it upconverts to 1080i?

They also print that it "supports 720p, 768p and 1080i" 768p?

A lot of plasmas and LCDs are 768P (768 pixels in the vertical). This is probably more common than TVs that display 720P (DLPs and some LCDs). The new Sony LCDs are 788P though... Some Plasmas are 1080P, but are also typically only 1080 horizontal.

Seen the 841 selling for $279. This is a regular price...not on sale.

Dave

Well, I pulled the trigger and replaced my 5 year old Toshiba with one of these guys. I'm still checking it out, but last night I was breaking it in with the new Star Wars - A New Hope and noticed an artifact.

I have the player connected through component connections for now set to the the 480p (Progressive) to the digital input (component - video5) on my Sony HD-Compatible RPTV.

After Han, Luke rescue Liea (spelling?) and are escaping the Death Star, the Tie Fighters are strafing the Millenium Falcan and Luke and Han are in the gun turrets fighting them off, some of the Tie Fighters have a red or green box around them?

Don't know if this is the discs, player or TV. Any insight would be appreciated.

thx.wd

Phage,

Yes, there is a box around at least one of the tie fighters while it was attacking the falcon. Didn't notice a specific colour, except it appeared to be greyish.

Just curious why you have the 841 connected via component instead of DVI. Upconversion is only done via DVI.

Dave

The early Sony's do not have a DVI interface, only RGB HV. So until I find a DVI to RGB HV cable I'm stuck with 480p. It's still an upgrade from my old DVD player though and I wanted the SACD capabilities.

Phage,

I presume that your older Sony TV has component and is capable of 720p and 1080i. If so, I suggest you try the LG 7832 in the $220-$250 range. Futureshop.ca has a limited time sale on the 7832 for $225 plus taxes and FREE shipping. Not sure which build they will be shipping, but insist on an older one (Nov/Dec 2003 or Feb/Mar 2004). The LG 7832 upconvert all DVDs to 720p/1080i via component....except the newer builds like the July 2004 which only upconvert some DVDs to 720p/1080i. No SACD on the 7832 however.

Dave

DavidY,

Yeah, they have one digital input and can do 1080i, but not 780p though... in the TV video setup you choose a setting of either RGB or Component and 3 of the RCA inputs are shared for either the RGB or Component inputs, there are 2 extra inputs H and V.

After thinking this through, I think you are right. I plan on getting an ExpressVu HD receiver next year so I will then have two devices and only one digital input. I will have to use my HT receiver video switching with the component input... the DVD player and HD sat box goes into the receiver and then from the receiver to the digital component input. Since there is no DVI switching on my HT receiver, if I stay with Samsung, I'm sunk...

I thought that it didn't output in progressive through DVI.

It would have been smarter to go with the upconverting 1080i LG player.

Well I returned the unit the other day. Although I could probably lived with my mistake of the 1080i not available through component video, and the flimsy back panel, the DTS bug was unbearable. How could a company actually sell a DVD player with the DTS logo on it, that doesn't play DTS proprerly? :mad:

I must say that the CC store I bought it from was very good about the return.

Found that LG model (Feb. 2004) after phoning most of the electronics stores in Winnipeg. Turned out to be the store right around the corner from my house! And boy, oh boy what a difference! Solidly built and ready to go, (the Samy's defaults were set for a standard TV and had to be re-set, but the LG was ready for an HD set) just hit the upconvert button and bingo... jaw dropping picture... I actually got a little dizzy on the chase across the plains scene in the Two Towers. :-D

One glitch however that I will post in the LG section.

Phage,
I did the same as you. Although, I never really tested anything with DTS(since I setup DD w/ perfect soundstage on my receiver, DTS doesn't sound as good as DD). What drove me nuts was that my Sammy 841 kept turning on subtitles by default. The bigger issue was that I didn't like the stretch modes either, even though people rave about the stretch modes on the Sammy......I just don't see it. The PQ was nice but after only one night with the LG I can see a better overall PQ. Also, the stretch mode on the LG is way better because you can stretch only horizontally and it doesn't make actors and objects look "elongated". Like you, I managed to find a unit that was FEB04 manu. date but prefer the DVI output to component(it's nice to have the choice though).
I also had another issue; I have a Toshiba 46h84 with HDMI, when I bought the HDMI-DVI cable I plugged into the Sammy and everything that was pitch black had a major green tinge to it(including the black bars on top and bottom). At first I thought it was the cable or even the Tv's HDMI input that had the problem. But when I plugged the hdmi cable into my Motorola HD box I didn't see the greenish hue. I also changed all my settings for contrast, brightness and color but to no avail(unless I turn down the brightness all the way to 0). The LG did not display the same problem. (they both have DVI-D output, so this couldn't be the issue). In the end, despite the greenish hue problem the Sammy's PQ just wasn't as smooth, sharp and "life-like" as the LG-7832.

I read that one reviewer was using an Outlaw ICBM. However, I don't have an ICBM. I do have 5 identical satellites, but each only has 1x5" woofer, and I have a great subwoofer where I'd like to direct the bass below say 60-80Hz.

I believe the 841 does include some bass management? Can anyone describe it? Any idea if it works on SACD and well as DVD-A, and what crossover points? Bass management on regular CDs ?

My Yamaha RX-V2200 receiver has the 5.1 analog inputs, but doesn't do bass management on them.

Also- my Toshiba 50HDX82 (rear projection CRT) does have a "DVI/HDCP" input, so I'm assuming I'll see some improvement in picture quality.

Mark - the 841 - like most inexpensive Uni players, only has a large and small setting for speaker, and a sub option (on/off or yes/no).

My old Pioneer 563 the freq. cutoff on DVD-A was 200hz (i.e. anything below 200hz went to the sub) when the speakers were set to small. SACD was slightly better with a small setting of 120hz. When set to large, the speakers get the full range, and only the .1 channel is sent to the sub. Only players costing at least $1000.00 do proper bass management. I believe some of the newer AVR's coming out also do proper bass management with the analog channels, but either way both options are way to expensive. I happened upon a discussion of the ICBM on another forum (AVS Forum) and decided to check it out. They (Outlaw Audio) had some b-stock available for $50 US off (about a 25% discount) plus free shipping which they honored to Canada. So, for about $280.00 when all was said and done (Canadian $'s with taxes and broker fees) this was a much much cheaper route.

I now have full bass management on all channels, including a 6th channel (if ever needed) that no player out there can better - regardless of cost, and the difference in sound was incredible.

I then bought the 841 as I ran out of patience waiting for the 941. I have not heard the 841 without being plugged through my ICBM, but I have read on a few posts that the cutoff is the same for both formats - DVD-A & SACD - when speakers are set to small, at 120 hz. So, if you have small speakers, it should sound OK. I found the SACD on my PIO to be tolerable, but the DVD-A was horrible to say the least with 200hz cutoff - so I had to set my mains and center to 'large' for it to sound good.

thanks. I've just ordered an ICBM-1. Pretty trivial cost compared to the 6 speakers plus sub-woofer. I already have a Panasonic DVD-A player with no bass management, which sounds pretty thin on some disks, so will try out the ICBM on that. I'll probably also try out the 841. I've read that there are a few lemons, but if you get lucky with a good one (as you did) they're great value. I'm looking forward to seeing the DVI connection to my Toshiba.

Congrats on your ICBM purchase Mark - you won't be disappointed! With our Canadian $ being so strong right now to it's best to jump at this stuff while you can.

I do have the DTS issue on some discs that others have complained about - i.e. audio drops. But, it only happens 3 or 4 times during the first 15 minutes of a movie then it goes away. The drops are very minimal - you can hear it, but it only lasts a fraction of a second.

Note that not all DTS tracks have audio drops either. I have some DVD-A's from AIX records (another US company that I need to order from very soon to take advantage of the strong dollar) that have two sides - a DVD-A side (naturally) with audience or Stage mixes, and a DVD-Video side with DD, PCM Stereo, and DTS stage mixes (along with video). When listening to the DTS track on the AIX DVD's, I have no DTS audio drops at all (at least, I haven't noticed any - albeit I rarely listen/watch these DVD's on the video side).

If you haven't heard of these guys, you should check them out - they are all original recordings done in a high resolution format with nothing done after the recording to enhance the sound (none is needed). All they do is separate the music into different channels - the website is www.aixrecords.com if you want to check them out. Order one DVD-A and you get a 'free' sampler (there is a $6.95 s/h charge) that really shows off what they do, not to mention your audio setup. I take the sampler disc with me when I audition various speakers, and it's all I can do to leave the place with the disc, as all the salespeople want to know where I got it from, how much it was, and can I sell it to them (which I won't) - it is that good.

Anyway, let us know how you like your ICBM - if you have any questions on it, feel free to post them - I'll be watching!