Majortom, I hadn't realized that WUTV was also doing the same thing with EIT's, and I just realized my RCA converter box also can't detect program guide data on that channel either! :eek:

But WUTV works for you! (btw, what tuner does WUTV program data work on? Was it the Zenith DTT901? LG HDTV? or both?)

That suggests to me that there are tuners in (at least 3) categories:

some that can't handle the moving EIT-0 pid at all (like my RCA)
some that can handle the moving EIT-0 pid as long as everything else in the PSIP tables is somewhat clean (yours)
some that handle the moving EIT-0 even with some things messed up in the PSIP tables (like my Sharp and Toshiba HDTVs)


I'm thinking the best approach to resolve the case of CBC data is to recommended cleaning up the MGT TVCT/CVCT stuff. Now I'm sure that won't solve it for my RCA but it should help people with tuners in the category like yours.

Yes, WUTV works fine here on every tuner I have.
It's just CBLT with the problem here.

I'm not familiar with the RCA convertor. What type of guide is it, a Now/Next,
or is it a full blown Guide? The Zenith DTT-901 is just a Now/Next.
The LG TV just displays the current Program (Now).

Edit: guesstimating, EIT-0 should be the first PID on Thurs Apr 5th, between 8 AM and 11 AM??

El Gran Chico,
Ya wanna check ur RCA box again on WUTV? Cause it looks back to normal again now. Some output from this linux cmd line utility,
atsc_epg.
Now that it's back to normal, wondering if you can see it's guide on the RCA box now?

$ atsc_epg -a 1 -f 472625000
tuning to 472625000 Hz, please wait...
tuner locked.
system time: Sat Mar 31 21:26:43 2012
TS STT time: Sat Mar 31 21:26:32 2012
MGT table:
0: type = 0x0000, PID = 0x1FFB, terrestrial VCT with current_next_indictor=1
1: type = 0x0100, PID = 0x1D00, EIT 0
2: type = 0x0101, PID = 0x1D01, EIT 1
3: type = 0x0102, PID = 0x1D02, EIT 2
4: type = 0x0103, PID = 0x1D03, EIT 3
5: type = 0x0104, PID = 0x1D04, EIT 4
6: type = 0x0105, PID = 0x1D05, EIT 5
7: type = 0x0106, PID = 0x1D06, EIT 6
8: type = 0x0107, PID = 0x1D07, EIT 7
9: type = 0x0108, PID = 0x1D08, EIT 8
10: type = 0x0109, PID = 0x1D09, EIT 9
11: type = 0x010A, PID = 0x1D0A, EIT 10
12: type = 0x010B, PID = 0x1D0B, EIT 11
13: type = 0x0200, PID = 0x1E00, event ETT 0
14: type = 0x0201, PID = 0x1E01, event ETT 1
15: type = 0x0202, PID = 0x1E02, event ETT 2
16: type = 0x0203, PID = 0x1E03, event ETT 3
17: type = 0x0204, PID = 0x1E04, event ETT 4
18: type = 0x0205, PID = 0x1E05, event ETT 5
19: type = 0x0206, PID = 0x1E06, event ETT 6
20: type = 0x0207, PID = 0x1E07, event ETT 7
21: type = 0x0208, PID = 0x1E08, event ETT 8
22: type = 0x0209, PID = 0x1E09, event ETT 9
23: type = 0x020A, PID = 0x1E0A, event ETT 10
24: type = 0x020B, PID = 0x1E0B, event ETT 11
25: type = 0x0004, PID = 0x1E80, channel ETT
26: type = 0x0301, PID = 0x1FFB, RRT with rating region 1
receiving EIT ........
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
29.1 WUTV-HD
|20:00--20:30| Cops
|20:30--21:00| Cops
|21:00--22:00| Bones
|22:00--22:30| The Big Bang Theory
|22:30--23:00| The Big Bang Theory
|23:00--00:30| ¡Q' Viva! The Chosen
|00:30--01:30| Cheaters
|01:30--02:00| Paid Program
|02:00--04:00| Paparazzi
|04:00--04:30| Paid Program
|04:30--05:00| Paid Program
|05:00--05:30| Paid Program
|05:30--06:00| Paid Program
|06:00--06:30| Paid Program
|06:30--07:00| Paid Program
|07:00--07:30| Paid Program
|07:30--08:00| The Mass
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
29.2 TCN
|15:00--23:00| Country TV
|23:00--07:00| Country TV
|23:00--07:00| Country TV
|07:00--15:00| Country TV
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CBLT is of course still hosed.
Could probably stand to slave the STT time off of an NTP server or sumthin too (it's two minutes behind).

$ atsc_epg -a 1 -f 508625000
tuning to 508625000 Hz, please wait...
tuner locked.
system time: Sat Mar 31 21:30:19 2012
TS STT time: Sat Mar 31 21:28:18 2012
MGT table:
0: type = 0x0002, PID = 0x1FFB, cable VCT with current_next_indictor=1
1: type = 0x0000, PID = 0x1FFB, terrestrial VCT with current_next_indictor=1
2: type = 0x0125, PID = 0x1000, EIT 37
3: type = 0x0126, PID = 0x1001, EIT 38
4: type = 0x0127, PID = 0x1002, EIT 39
5: type = 0x0128, PID = 0x1003, EIT 40
6: type = 0x0129, PID = 0x1004, EIT 41
7: type = 0x012A, PID = 0x1005, EIT 42
8: type = 0x012B, PID = 0x1006, EIT 43
9: type = 0x012C, PID = 0x1007, EIT 44
10: type = 0x012D, PID = 0x1008, EIT 45
11: type = 0x012E, PID = 0x1009, EIT 46
12: type = 0x012F, PID = 0x100A, EIT 47
13: type = 0x0130, PID = 0x100B, EIT 48
14: type = 0x0131, PID = 0x100C, EIT 49
15: type = 0x0132, PID = 0x100D, EIT 50
16: type = 0x0133, PID = 0x100E, EIT 51
17: type = 0x0134, PID = 0x100F, EIT 52
18: type = 0x0135, PID = 0x1010, EIT 53
19: type = 0x0136, PID = 0x1011, EIT 54
20: type = 0x0137, PID = 0x1012, EIT 55
21: type = 0x0100, PID = 0x1013, EIT 0
22: type = 0x0101, PID = 0x1014, EIT 1
23: type = 0x0102, PID = 0x1015, EIT 2
24: type = 0x0103, PID = 0x1016, EIT 3
25: type = 0x0104, PID = 0x1017, EIT 4
26: type = 0x0105, PID = 0x1018, EIT 5
27: type = 0x0106, PID = 0x1019, EIT 6
28: type = 0x0107, PID = 0x101A, EIT 7
29: type = 0x0108, PID = 0x101B, EIT 8
30: type = 0x0109, PID = 0x101C, EIT 9
31: type = 0x010A, PID = 0x101D, EIT 10
32: type = 0x010B, PID = 0x101E, EIT 11
33: type = 0x010C, PID = 0x101F, EIT 12
34: type = 0x010D, PID = 0x1020, EIT 13
35: type = 0x010E, PID = 0x1021, EIT 14
36: type = 0x010F, PID = 0x1022, EIT 15
37: type = 0x0110, PID = 0x1023, EIT 16
38: type = 0x0111, PID = 0x1024, EIT 17
39: type = 0x0112, PID = 0x1025, EIT 18
40: type = 0x0113, PID = 0x1026, EIT 19
41: type = 0x0114, PID = 0x1027, EIT 20
42: type = 0x0115, PID = 0x1028, EIT 21
43: type = 0x0116, PID = 0x1029, EIT 22
44: type = 0x0117, PID = 0x102A, EIT 23
45: type = 0x0118, PID = 0x102B, EIT 24
46: type = 0x0119, PID = 0x102C, EIT 25
47: type = 0x011A, PID = 0x102D, EIT 26
48: type = 0x011B, PID = 0x102E, EIT 27
49: type = 0x011C, PID = 0x102F, EIT 28
50: type = 0x011D, PID = 0x1030, EIT 29
51: type = 0x011E, PID = 0x1031, EIT 30
52: type = 0x011F, PID = 0x1032, EIT 31
53: type = 0x0120, PID = 0x1033, EIT 32
54: type = 0x0121, PID = 0x1034, EIT 33
55: type = 0x0122, PID = 0x1035, EIT 34
56: type = 0x0123, PID = 0x1036, EIT 35
57: type = 0x0124, PID = 0x1037, EIT 36
58: type = 0x0225, PID = 0x1080, event ETT 37
59: type = 0x0226, PID = 0x1081, event ETT 38
60: type = 0x0227, PID = 0x1082, event ETT 39
61: type = 0x0228, PID = 0x1083, event ETT 40
62: type = 0x0229, PID = 0x1084, event ETT 41
63: type = 0x022A, PID = 0x1085, event ETT 42
64: type = 0x022B, PID = 0x1086, event ETT 43
65: type = 0x022C, PID = 0x1087, event ETT 44
66: type = 0x022D, PID = 0x1088, event ETT 45
67: type = 0x022E, PID = 0x1089, event ETT 46
68: type = 0x022F, PID = 0x108A, event ETT 47
69: type = 0x0230, PID = 0x108B, event ETT 48
70: type = 0x0231, PID = 0x108C, event ETT 49
71: type = 0x0232, PID = 0x108D, event ETT 50
72: type = 0x0235, PID = 0x1090, event ETT 53
73: type = 0x0236, PID = 0x1091, event ETT 54
74: type = 0x0237, PID = 0x1092, event ETT 55
75: type = 0x0200, PID = 0x1093, event ETT 0
76: type = 0x0201, PID = 0x1094, event ETT 1
77: type = 0x0202, PID = 0x1095, event ETT 2
78: type = 0x0203, PID = 0x1096, event ETT 3
79: type = 0x0204, PID = 0x1097, event ETT 4
80: type = 0x0205, PID = 0x1098, event ETT 5
81: type = 0x0206, PID = 0x1099, event ETT 6
82: type = 0x0207, PID = 0x109A, event ETT 7
83: type = 0x0208, PID = 0x109B, event ETT 8
84: type = 0x0209, PID = 0x109C, event ETT 9
85: type = 0x020A, PID = 0x109D, event ETT 10
86: type = 0x020B, PID = 0x109E, event ETT 11
87: type = 0x020C, PID = 0x109F, event ETT 12
88: type = 0x020D, PID = 0x10A0, event ETT 13
89: type = 0x020E, PID = 0x10A1, event ETT 14
90: type = 0x020F, PID = 0x10A2, event ETT 15
91: type = 0x0210, PID = 0x10A3, event ETT 16
92: type = 0x0211, PID = 0x10A4, event ETT 17
93: type = 0x0212, PID = 0x10A5, event ETT 18
94: type = 0x0213, PID = 0x10A6, event ETT 19
95: type = 0x0214, PID = 0x10A7, event ETT 20
96: type = 0x0215, PID = 0x10A8, event ETT 21
97: type = 0x0216, PID = 0x10A9, event ETT 22
98: type = 0x0217, PID = 0x10AA, event ETT 23
99: type = 0x0218, PID = 0x10AB, event ETT 24
100: type = 0x0219, PID = 0x10AC, event ETT 25
101: type = 0x021A, PID = 0x10AD, event ETT 26
102: type = 0x021B, PID = 0x10AE, event ETT 27
103: type = 0x021C, PID = 0x10AF, event ETT 28
104: type = 0x021D, PID = 0x10B0, event ETT 29
105: type = 0x0220, PID = 0x10B3, event ETT 32
106: type = 0x0221, PID = 0x10B4, event ETT 33
107: type = 0x0222, PID = 0x10B5, event ETT 34
108: type = 0x0223, PID = 0x10B6, event ETT 35
109: type = 0x0004, PID = 0x1100, channel ETT
receiving EIT ....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5.1 CBLT-DT
|19:00--22:00| NHL Hockey
|22:00--00:40| NHL Hockey
|00:40--01:30| Hockey Night in Canada: After Hours
|01:30--03:30| NHL Hockey
|03:30--05:30| Heaven on Earth
|05:30--06:00| The Canadian Antiques Roadshow
|06:00--06:30| Super Why!
|06:30--07:00| Artzooka
|07:00--08:00| Coronation Street
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Majortom, yup I calculated that from 8 to 11pm it may be ok and what-da-ya-know, it's working!!! Of course it will stop working at 11pm.

Back to CBC and CBLT. I calculate that EIT-0 will return to the lowest PID on Thursday from 11am to 2pm Eastern Time. I wonder if any CBC Program guide issues go away for 3 hours?!?

El Gran Chico,
is your RCA a full browsable guide, or just a now/next type of guide?

Check out figure 5.1 on page 22 of the ATSC PSIP spec.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/44636646/19-a65-PSIP.pdf

Several Event Information Tables (EIT) are also part of the PSIP data structures, with their PIDs explicitly defined in the MGT. Figure 5.1 illustrates the relations between these elements.


I would say the standard clearly says they should be in the right order, so if indeed the cause of the problem, it's not a device issue.

Edit: Did your RCA box Break again as scheduled on WUTV?
WUTV
$ atsc_epg -a 1 -f 472625000
tuning to 472625000 Hz, please wait...
tuner locked.
system time: Sat Mar 31 23:14:26 2012
TS STT time: Sat Mar 31 23:14:14 2012
MGT table:
0: type = 0x0000, PID = 0x1FFB, terrestrial VCT with current_next_indictor=1
1: type = 0x010B, PID = 0x1D00, EIT 11
2: type = 0x0100, PID = 0x1D01, EIT 0
3: type = 0x0101, PID = 0x1D02, EIT 1
4: type = 0x0102, PID = 0x1D03, EIT 2
5: type = 0x0103, PID = 0x1D04, EIT 3
6: type = 0x0104, PID = 0x1D05, EIT 4
7: type = 0x0105, PID = 0x1D06, EIT 5
8: type = 0x0106, PID = 0x1D07, EIT 6
9: type = 0x0107, PID = 0x1D08, EIT 7
10: type = 0x0108, PID = 0x1D09, EIT 8
11: type = 0x0109, PID = 0x1D0A, EIT 9
12: type = 0x010A, PID = 0x1D0B, EIT 10
13: type = 0x0200, PID = 0x1E00, event ETT 0
14: type = 0x0201, PID = 0x1E01, event ETT 1
15: type = 0x0202, PID = 0x1E02, event ETT 2
16: type = 0x0203, PID = 0x1E03, event ETT 3
17: type = 0x0204, PID = 0x1E04, event ETT 4
18: type = 0x0205, PID = 0x1E05, event ETT 5
19: type = 0x0206, PID = 0x1E06, event ETT 6
20: type = 0x0207, PID = 0x1E07, event ETT 7
21: type = 0x0208, PID = 0x1E08, event ETT 8
22: type = 0x0209, PID = 0x1E09, event ETT 9
23: type = 0x020A, PID = 0x1E0A, event ETT 10
24: type = 0x020B, PID = 0x1E0B, event ETT 11
25: type = 0x0004, PID = 0x1E80, channel ETT
26: type = 0x0301, PID = 0x1FFB, RRT with rating region 1
receiving EIT ........

El Gran Chico,
Here's another one to keep an eye on, WBBZ. It doesn't work either on the Zenith DTT-901 or the LG, but does work on the other set which has no issue with CBLT.
Not sure if you receive this one though?
Again, not following fig 5.1 of that spec. It's not sending Program Guide info per se, but it does send the subchannel Names in the EIT, in place of programs. Probably to be compliant until they can afford to upgrade that with real Program Guide Info.

WBBZ-DT
$ atsc_epg -a 1 -f 176625000
tuning to 176625000 Hz, please wait...
tuner locked.
system time: Sun Apr 1 10:14:01 2012
TS STT time: Sun Apr 1 10:14:01 2012
MGT table:
0: type = 0x0000, PID = 0x1FFB, terrestrial VCT with current_next_indictor=1
1: type = 0x0301, PID = 0x1FFB, RRT with rating region 1
2: type = 0x0100, PID = 0x1F02, EIT 0
3: type = 0x0101, PID = 0x1F03, EIT 1
4: type = 0x0102, PID = 0x1F00, EIT 2
5: type = 0x0103, PID = 0x1F01, EIT 3

Majortom, CBLT (and WUTV too) is explicitly defining the PIDs in MGT. They just aren't ordered. Maybe I missed it but I don't see anything in the ATSC spec mandating the order of the PIDs. Actually in the middle of page 23, it seems to be talking about exactly what CBLT is doing.

So for my RCA converter (DTA800, has now/next), I think the reason I don't see CBLT data is due to a bug in its firmware. Still curious what will happen 11am to 2pm on Thursday?! :confused:

In your tuners' cases, since it handles WUTV, I'd guess CBC will still fail 11am to 2pm on Thursday.

I'm still of the opinion your tuners either:

a) don't like TVCT and CVCT defined in MGT with no TVCT present

or

b) just plain don't like having TVCT missing

It sound like your "before the transition" observations rule out (b). I just checked Trip's rabbitears.info site and it seems to support this too, but it doesn't show what MGT was pre-transition.

The ATSC spec (Document A/65) does say

[QUOTE]Requirement 4: Every digital Transport Stream in terrestrial broadcast shall include the STT, the TVCT, the MGT, .... [QUOTE]

to which CBLT is clearly not compliant.

anything's possible, but I don't think it's the missing TVCT alone. I do know that CBLT used to send both TVCT and CVCT in their stream, but the guide still never worked on the same two devices.
Couple of previous posts about their TVCT & CVCT from way back.
http://digitalhome.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=1080956&postcount=1293

and

http://digitalhome.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=1152771&postcount=1473
It also looks like the same rolling EIT-0 back then as well so that still needs to be ruled out.

I just looked at a .TS recording I have from October 2010 and that confirms both were present pre-transition.

BTW, when you export to HTML in TSReader, it's only showing the TVCT in the html, so ya can't count on that.

Figure 5.1 illustrates the relations between these elements.

This is another thing they aren't following from the standard.

This morning ~ 4:48 AM, CBC's guide showed up on the LG and the Zenith DTT-901. It only lasted about 10 minutes, until the current (at that time) EIT expired at 5 AM. Might be worth keeping an eye on CBLT at the end of each 3 hour EIT interval, to see how often that happens ( just prior to 2,5,8,11 hours).

Further, from 5 AM to 8 AM, WBBZ's EIT-0 was the lowest PID, and still neither
device could display it's "guide" (in the case of WBBZ it is just the name of the channel for the 3 hour duration of the EIT).

So, for these two devices, it may not be related to the moving EIT 0 after all. Something else may be amiss. Still may be interesting to see what happens Thursday though.

Bingo! 7:52 PM, 8 minutes prior to current EIT expiring, CBLT works again on the LG TV, displaying "Jeopardy!", so on.
Ditto on the Zenith DTT-901.
It will disappear as soon as the last program in the current EIT expires at 8 PM CBLT time.

I'm still of the opinion your tuners either:

a) don't like TVCT and CVCT defined in MGT with no TVCT present

or

b) just plain don't like having TVCT missing


El Gran Chico
After further analysis I have come to the conclusion CBLT's TVCT is NOT missing. TSReader just isn't displaying it in the table hierarchy, but it is there.
To check it yourself, you can save PID 0x1ffb to a file, stop it after around 20 to 30 seconds or so (from the menu, Record/Record Pids, select 0x1ffb).
Then view/edit the recorded binary file with a hex editor.

Look for the below signature which is the beginning of the TVCT information, signified by 'C8' (see table 6.4 on page 32 of the PSIP standard doc)

00C8 F05D 43A1

0xC8 -> Table Id - Terrestrial Virtual Channel Table

0x43A1 -> Transport Stream Id -> 17313

Just before that you'll also see
00C9 F05C 43A1
Which is for the CVCT (0xC9)

After further analysis I have come to the conclusion CBLT's TVCT is NOT missing. TSReader just isn't displaying it in the table hierarchy, but it is there.
To check it yourself, you can save PID 0x1ffb to a file, stop it after around 20 to 30 seconds or so (from the menu, Record/Record Pids, select 0x1ffb).
Then view/edit the recorded binary file with a hex editor.

If TSReader has trouble finding its TVCT, I imagine tuners do too. Every other station in Toronto/Hamilton/Buffalo (other that CBLFT of course, same as CBLT) TSReader has no trouble identifying it.

Bingo! 7:52 PM, 8 minutes prior to current EIT expiring, CBLT works again on the LG TV

No change with my tuner. I checked if something changed in its PSIP just before the expiry of an EIT and I couldn't spot anything. :confused:

The tuned out no TV number is mostly people using Grey market or US sat services.Therefore the 7% maybe added to their 5% and now 12% may rely on OTA for CBC.

If TSReader has trouble finding its TVCT, I imagine tuners do too.


I don't believe receivers have any problem finding it, because if that were the case they wouldn't be able to display 5.1 CBLT-DT, yet they do.

I couldn't find anything different in that timeframe either. But then again, I'm not a TV receiver:)
My guess, and only a guess is that the issue may be something timing related.

Majortom, just a few minutes to go before EIT-0 returns to PID 0x1000 on CBLT. :o

At the moment,

EIT-1 (0101) on PID 0x1000
EIT-0 (0100) on PID 0x1037

As expected, program info works for CBLT Thursdays 11am to 2pm EDT on my RCA DTA800 :o

http://yfrog.com/2odgouj

Nice, So that confirms that alone would fix some receivers. Unfortunately I wasn't available to look here at that time. Maybe next week...
With any luck maybe Marc's been following along here??
Have you been in touch with anyone at CBC by any chance?

Nice, So that confirms that alone would fix some receivers. Unfortunately I wasn't available to look here at that time. Maybe next week...
With any luck maybe Marc's been following along here??
Have you been in touch with anyone at CBC by any chance?

I've been following the thread, but as of the Sept 2011 transition I no longer have direct hands on control over PSIP and EPG.

I will say the level of detail you are discussing is not available as an adjustment on the system I was using. PSIP generators are off-the -shelf products. We didn`t design and build our own. The EPG settings were...

1. FTP login parameters for source schedules
2. Choose a time zone
3. Display how many days in the future:1-7

If the RCA DTA800 is choking when other devices work I would ask RCA for an update.

Thanks Marc, I kinda figured ya would be;)
I do understand it'd pretty much be like a black box, so on.
By any chance do you know if there is a means to slave it to an accurate time source, like an NTP server?

Yes, the old system synced to a time server, but that data can be overwritten at the transmitter. I don't know how the new system is configured.

Also curious, if ya know if something like that gets maintained with software updates from the vendor from time to time?

An occasional update is not unusual. Again, the Transmitter Group looks after this stuff now so I have no details.