: CHCH Hamilton DTV Transition - Aug. 15, 2011 - update in Post #462
Another thought for those having issues, how close are you to FM transmitters in the 98-101 MHz range? You may want to look into an FM trap, as FM signals in that range have their second harmonic in the channel 11 spectrum, and I have heard of FM traps helping in some cases.
2011-08-15, 04:40 PM
Here is an FMFool example from my b-i-l's apartment downtown on the 18th floor:
CFMX 96.3 60kW 1.3dBm 1.0 miles
CHFI 98.1 44kW -3.5dBm 1.5 miles
CKFM 99.9 40kW -4.0dBm 1.5 miles
CHIN 100.7 4kW -14.0dBm 1.5 miles
CJSA 101.3 0.85 -17.6dBm 1.0 miles
CFMX would be a problem for channel 10, but luckily anyone trying to get that would have a directional antenna pointed the other way. (Unless of course they're at Queen's Quay LOL)
FMFool is out of date, since it is only based on the FCC db, and it's missing CBC1 at 99.1
Note that Longley-Rice is not taking local clutter into account, so these values may not apply closer to the ground. However, this particular location does have real LOS to both the CN tower and First Canadian Place.
And to the extent that some multipath could be additive, things can be even worse!
Since my b-i-l is currently using a UHF-only Silver Sensor, I'm sure he won't be getting 11.1 anyway. Luckily for him, he rarely watches that channel.
2011-08-15, 04:55 PM
A little tunin up top, now I'm getting it here in Buffalo on 3 of 4 tuners.
Raised the VHF Antenna a few inches, maybe six, and took apart the homemade VHF Hi High Pass filter, tightening up one of the F-Connectors, and ensured the case is weather tight. Stable reception now on the LG LCD TV and Zenith DTT-901 CECB. Marginal, but enough to grab a TsReader export of it from the ancient ATI Wonder 650 USB. Still no lock via the USB stick tuner though.
Still thinkin a better VHF antenna will be the ticket here. Signal is there, a matter of optimising for VHF.
Still receiving CHCH-dt on 11 with 92 to 99 % solid with my homemade yagi UVJ with my Toronto UHF antenna feed.You guys were expecting 6kw to match 316kw analog or 60kw on 18 to match 6kw on 11.Glad I set up before hand for a perfect picture on analog 11.
Congrats on your setup and your foresight. To be fair however, I think most readers of this forum expected the reception difficulties that alebowgm notes has impacted those outside the 60dbu line on the CHCH coverage map.
Congrats also to Major Tom on your tweaking.
2011-08-15, 05:15 PM
No longer recievable on here in Stouffville, even with a VHF antenna. That low ERP isn't going to cut it. It appears it's a major reduction in their service contour. They need to go back to 18 where I had no issues at all.
2011-08-15, 05:18 PM
Just want to report as of 16.11 CHCH on 11.1 is no longer available due to switch to VHF. As of last night channel 18 was working, signal strength around 50%, but solid.
I see from this coverage map that I should still be getting a signal - but right now nothing Hope others have better experience than me! Not sure I know what I'm going to do. Guess wait until things "settle down" in September.
You will most likely have to 'do a full rescan' to wipe out the current channel memory and reload the new scanned channels.
2011-08-15, 05:39 PM
Still coming in at about 30dB (off VHF leg of CM7777) here in Kitchener, even with antenna pointed at Toronto (37° variance east). My TVFool (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d3e47472502e4ab) indicates that I'm LOS to Hamilton at about 39.3 miles (63.25 km). The centre of my C5 VHF (http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/C5-Clearstream-DTV-antenna.html) is 66' (20.12 metres) above ground. My elevation at ground level is about 350 meters (1148') ASL.
In short, there is effectively no change in receive characteristics at my location for this station.
I've lost my reception on my DB8/CM7777 setup after the switch to RF11. This morning RF18 was coming in loud and clear as it has been for the past year or more. I am in Kitchener at Bleams/Strasburg.
2011-08-15, 05:49 PM
Did a rescan about 5 mins ago, nothing on 11 with a chimney-mount DB8 pointed at WGRZ, no pre-amp.
2011-08-15, 05:52 PM
CHCH is still running digital conversion PSA's. Which are obviously still applicable to viewers in re-transmitter locations...
2011-08-15, 06:00 PM
Now if CKVR hadn't sought 35 for their new transmitter, they could have asked to use the channel 35 allotment that CITS is preparing to abandon in favor of 36.
That's easily fixed by having CHCH's owner Channel Zero refuse to rent Bell the space.
They've already filed an intervention to Bell's application saying they had only agreed to rent Bell the space thinking that Bell was applying for an infill to in-market existing competitor CFTO, and not a market extension for (essentially out-of-market, at least OTA-wise and simsub-wise) CKVR.
Since 35 is co-channel to 36, it will have to be co-located to CITS on the same tower, so that would lock Bell out of moving it elsewhere. (Although it's possible that Bell has a tower somewhere nearby.)
(IC does have co-location rules for adjacent channels, but I'm not so sure they're that strict on it. Probably the same deal as allowing short-spacing with an interference analysis.)
2011-08-15, 06:04 PM
Just rescanned and got CH 11. Strength is 3-4 bars, pointing at CN tower (not at Hamilton). Still getting it with my CM4228. Looking forward to tomorrow morning and TVO.
2011-08-15, 06:06 PM
TsReader dump (http://www.wuala.com/whosurbud/Documents/TsReaderDumps/Aug15th2011/), TEI Errors from here but legible...
No improvement whatsoever in terms of an EPG. Same as it ever was (or wasn't dependin how ya look at it)
2011-08-15, 06:13 PM
Yes, agreed: Very disappointing EPG; it only shows local news info..and even then it's full of garbage characters...
2011-08-15, 06:15 PM
You will most likely have to 'do a full rescan' to wipe out the current channel memory and reload the new scanned channels. Already did twice; no joy. Will wait until after dark - perhaps that will make some difference.
2011-08-15, 06:29 PM
I got home and a torrential downpour occurred which I figured would affect things a bit. After it I scanned and.... no 11.1
I have a 4221HD pointed at Buffalo and a homemade Mclap vhf 2 bay bow tie pointed at Buffalo that would occasionally get me WNGS. I might go up on the roof and point the homemade vhf towards Hamilton to see what happens.
El Gran Chico
2011-08-15, 06:50 PM
I needed to do the same (I can watch my TiVo from work using my Slingbox). Now I can confirm my AntennasDirect DB-8 (aimed about 60 degrees away from Stoney Creek) is successfully receiving CHCH on VHF 11 in Etobicoke.
Update to post 66 now that I'm home. All my devices are showing a significant drop in signal strength (eg. Sharp Aquos showed low 80s on RF 18, now low 60s on RF 11) but still locks. I guess that should be expected when receiving a VHF station with a UHF antenna?!
After dinner I'm going to try some experiments with my original 4221 and point it right at Stoney Creek.
I fear that anyone east of the Humber River might be out of luck with a setup like mine.
2011-08-15, 07:37 PM
To sum up todays move, [this is of course my own opinion] there is little to claim as any gain and much to declare as being a loss.
Other than a few people who have made antenna adjustments today in order to fine-tune into 11RF, there seems to be no great gains for anyone so far today, but there certainly seems to be some great losses for those who are beyond that 60dbu perimeter. The proposed 60dbu contour area shown on this planned contour map, now seems to be the new 36dbu fringe/dropoff cliff. My personal observation is that the digital ERP that had be calculated to retain the analog contour was grossly mis-calculated.
El Gran Chico
2011-08-15, 08:02 PM
I agree with you OTA Canuck, although I bet the contours were drawn assuming:
- using a true VHF antenna
- antenna aimed at the transmitter
I think what many of us are doing is using antennas not designed for VHF (part of the attraction of being an early DTV adopter was that you didn't need a monstrous VHF/UHF combo antenna), and aiming it to maximize the number of channels we receive.
I guess I should count myself lucky as I sit almost right on the 36dbu line.
2011-08-15, 08:07 PM
Yes but I have a homemade VHF bowtie with reflectors that was getting me WNGS about 35 percent of the time and I am pointing it directly towards Hamilton. I am wondering whether the FM station theory that was mentioned here might be the cause. Does the CN Tower broadcast FM?
Also are FM traps sold separately or are they only included with pre-amps?
Could it still be early to make final judgments before everything is switched over (the optimist in me hopes.....)