Biggy,

That's a helpful tip (checking the analog). The complaints that a lot of OTAers have here, though, is that they did check and they had pretty good analog reception on rf11 of CHCH analog. But now that they have switched to digital, they aren't getting a watchable lock. This indicates to them that the transmitter is not sufficiently powered to provide the same contour area as before.

Hopefully we OTAers can help CHCH help us by providing useful data to demonstrate that they're real world signal is not equal to what their models show.

Wow.... i am getting CHCH RF11 right now at 82%. First time i have seen it.

Pretty amazing with CKWS Kingston on the same channel.

Well, I just added a CS5 to my attic antenna setup (4221HD + CM7778). Decided it was worth the investment since CTV will also be going VHF.

I'm at Yonge and Finch. Pointed the CS5 right at Hamilton and now I'm getting CHCH, but only at about 73%.

Wow...seems they really did muck things up good.

We just had our huge spruce tree cut down which was blocking everything from the rear of my 4228hd (which is aiming at Hamilton) so I was expecting a big increase in signal strength at least.

I'll be interested to hear of your results. We expect to be cutting down some white pines to make room for an addition, but they also block the sides of my 4221 from 'seeing' Toronto, so it will be interesting.

I really want to only have one antenna. For Toronto and Buffalo.

Maybe someone can help me understand how much antenna is required to get CH-CH.

I'm in (east) Markham 87.5km away, which is theoretically in the 36dBu zone. TVfool says I should get -65.9dBm power & 24.9dB and noise margin and need at least an attic antenna. The US results seem to suggest that the actual power is going to be ~10dB lower than predicted (which would put me down into the roof mounted antenna). How do I translate this into required antenna gain? (Assuming no cable losses as I already have a HDP-269, just need to buy a UVSJ.)

I assume a channel cut folded dipole & matching quarter wave balun isn't going to cut it for the theoretical or actual. Any suggestions other than an N element Yagi-Uda?

still no CHCH for me unless i cuddle my indoor antenna , rf 18 was great for me.

but I am 4 km exactly morth of the CN tower with my antanna pointed at Stoney Creek for CTS. [which is good]

noticed that when I was repositioning the Terk that my signal shot up to 88% on CHCH when I was holding itstill no CHCH for me unless i cuddle my indoor antennaWait a minute.... the gaussian properties must be correct so you need to put a metal mixing bowl on your head and then be sure to stand on one foot. Breathing might not be convenient for good signal either. :D Welcome to the crazy world of indoor antennas! :D

Checked out this thread and did a recheck this morning and CHCH is still alive and well. :) Just a while ago I re-zeroed (re-calibrated?) the rotor and did a total re-scan at eight different rotor compass points. After the scans were done I set the rotor at due north and CHCH came in fine. I had the rotor turn 360 degrees and only lost the signal between due south and SSW. Location is central St. Kitts close to the QEW. Antenna is a CM4228 on a tower and height above ground is around 32 feet.

As a side note, the re-scan resulted in an increased number of viewable stations available. Normally we average 28-30 but the re-scans resulted in there now being 38. It also picked up VHF stations 5 and above and all were viewable.

ericball,
I think your in a particularly difficult position, cause you have to aim toward the CN tower (which also has FM radio stations on it)
to aim at Hamilton. Something with a relatively narrow Horizontal BW might be required so ya can skirt around it.
If I understand the tvfool Noise Margin assumptions correctly, the NM is how many dB above the ATSC receive sensitivity threshold the signal should be. So it's giving u the # of dB above a 15dB SNR. That's outside, on the ground, at the height u put in without any accomodation for nearby local building clutter, etc. I would probably subtract roughly
10-15 dB from that if the antenna is not located outside unobstructed.

I'm not intimate with TVfool in any way So I don't think I understand exactly what it does, but will take a stab at it and let anyone else correct or add to it.

Consider a station with a 0 dB Noise Margin.
The goal is to stay above that required 15 dB ATSC SNR, all the time.
After subtracting the Noise figure of a typical Receive System, let's say 7 dB, we now are 7dB below the required Sensitivity threshold of 15 dB SNR. If we are using an antenna with 10 dB gain should get us back up above the sensitivity threshold with a 3 dB cushion. Which really isn't much once ya start considering real world factors that impede reception like multipath, interference, fading, impulse noise, and so on.

Biggy,

Thanks for the info...Prior to the switch, I was able to get CHCH with good signal strength with my CM4221.

Now, I think my location is too far from CHCH since the switch.

Hello Everyone!

Here’s something that definitely works from where I am located and now I am almost sure should work for many others. I’m basically in a hole in the ground and surround by large trees.

This afternoon I setup a simple portable TV antenna (bunny ear’s) on a 6 ft ladder on my deck with 50ft of RG9 and I was able to receive digital CHCH 11 at 85%.

What I have learned is if CHCH is truly transmitting at 6kw output, it just show how much better the digital signal (higher VHF band) travels and how much more it can penetrates then other higher UHF's.

So if you have a set of bunny ears try it out for yourself. Take your time tuning it and install it outside if you can. Then again if you’re not in a hole like me then you might be able to pickup indoors as well. If your out in the East end of the GTA most likely you will have to put outdoors.

If you can receive it just might save the dollars of purchasing a larger antenna and I am happy :Dfor you! Next thing you have to do if you receive it is combining it with your UHF antenna. There lots of info on that checkout this group.

All the best!

Hi Koolguy,

I just want to make sure I understand you correctly did you check the 4221 VHF analog reception for CHCH 11 not the digital CHCH 11 (RF18). If I understand you correctly you were able to get a good analog picture with 4221?

If you were able to get it well I am sorry and I understand Ajax is a good clip from their transmitter.

BTW 11 analog went off went the did the switch :(

I'll be interested to hear of your results. We expect to be cutting down some white pines to make room for an addition, but they also block the sides of my 4221 from 'seeing' Toronto, so it will be interesting.

I really want to only have one antenna. For Toronto and Buffalo.
Speaking from experience from doing numerous OTA installations in Burlington, it's almost impossible to receive all Toronto and Buffalo channels reliably using a single directional antenna such as the CM4221HD unless you are way up north and have good height or use a rotor. This is due to the angle between Toronto and Hamilton being close to 90 degrees in your area.

If you are south of the QEW, you really have no chance unless you have a tall tower as the ground elevation is way lower in that area. You could also try an omnidirectional antenna along with a pre-amp but performance is typically much lower than a directional antenna.

CHCH has been gone for an hour,[just a sniff] so maybe they are on the standby antenna and are doing some upgrades on their main antenna.:confused:

I posted a message in this thread:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=1300341&postcount=241

Perhaps a solution could be on the horizon for both CHCH and CFTO after SunTV has announced that they're abandoning broadcasting over the air in October. That'll free up Channel 15 in Hamilton and Channel 40 in Toronto for the respective channels.

It's 3:51pm now checkout 11 CHCH it up running and I was testing no lost of signal.

Currently receiving it at 58%, right on the cliff with 50% signal quality.

No idea if it's tropo or they adjusted anything. I'm guessing tropo :(

Biggy,

I was able to get CHCH 11 (analog) but a little snowy. I'll give rabbit ear (your idea) a try and see if it works from this end.

Speaking from experience from doing numerous OTA installations in Burlington, it's almost impossible to receive all Toronto and Buffalo channels reliably using a single directional antenna such as the CM4221HD unless you are way up north and have good height or use a rotor. This is due to the angle between Toronto and Hamilton being close to 90 degrees in your area.

If you are south of the QEW, you really have no chance unless you have a tall tower as the ground elevation is way lower in that area. You could also try an omnidirectional antenna along with a pre-amp but performance is typically much lower than a directional antenna.

That's certainly the way it is now. I'm still hoping that once the Toronto stations go up to full power that the one antenna will suffice. We should know better in 12 days!

BTW I currently have 2 CM4221HDs (modded and hacked) to get both Toronto and Buffalo and it mostly works, but I can help but think 1 would be cleaner.

The CHCH over-the-air signal on 11RF at only 6kw is a joke!

From the days of watching Bill Lawrence's Tiny Talent Time to recent days of watching Bob Cowan on CHCH News Now, I have never once had any issues over the past 40 years with getting CHCH's analog on channel 11RF. Since CHCH transitioned from 11RF analog to 11RF digital at a pitiful 6kw ERP the other day, the CHCH signal has become pure crap in my location.

If it's tropo, or whatever the lame excuse of the day may be, this level of CHCH's 11RF digital OTA broadcast is simply unacceptable. The analog to digital transition was not supposed to create these losses of OTA broadcast contours.

Being that I absolutely refuse to subscribe to a BDU service for television, nor would I consider adding a new 15ft directional antenna dedicated to CHCH's Hamilton tower, I guess CHCH is simply going to be scratched off my list.