I am seeing the CTV owned stations are way to low in major markets compared to their analogue counterparts even after adjusting for the lower power needs of DTV. Look at CFTO, this summer off goes the blowtorch on 9 and the little firefly starts up. Most of the other CN tower tenants will be 100kw+. Up here in the Kawartha’s we are going to be blessed with a CFTO repeater at three times the power of CN tower original source servicing 1/10 of the population. Same with CKVR, they don’t want you watching it so they keep it low.

I dunno. Seems like a coincidence to me.
You'll find the main reason for the extreme difference in ERP is related to channel use. CFTO will be VHF while every other Toronto TV station will be UHF.
The same is happening in Ottawa, Montreal and Quebec City, where the VHF channels are typically 10 to 100 times less powerful than their UHF counterparts. A few examples, all using max ERP:

Quebec: CBVT 12 @ 2.4 kW versus CFCM 17 @ 210 kW.
Montreal: CFCF 12 @ 10.6 kW versus CBMT 21 @ 436 kW.
Ottawa: CJOH 13 @ 19 kW versus CBOT 25 @ 165 kW.
Toronto: CFTO 9 @ 10.8 kW versus CBLT 20 @ 106 kW.

But in Halifax, the local CTV station is moving to UHF 48 and will be using an ERP of 400 kW -- the highest in the market. (Compare to CIHF 8 using 1 kW. Not a typo.)
In Calgary, our local CTV station is leaving VHF for Channel 29, where it's pumping out more than 200 kW ERP -- the most powerful station in our market.
That's what RF physics and government regulations have given us.

The same thing happened in the US with VHF stations and massive complaints about loss of reception followed. The digital power calculations made for VHF coverage are off by 50% or more. VHF-lo is especially bad. Some stations, such as CIII Paris are being cut by 95%. There is no way that 5% of the analog power will provide the same coverage with digital. Based on US results, some stations had the good sense to apply for more power or a modified ERP using a directional antenna but others have not. I'm wondering if some Canadian stations and networks are doing this on purpose so that people will be forced to subscribe to a BDU but the stations, at least on paper, will still be eligible for simsubs.

I am seeing the CTV owned stations are way to low in major markets compared to their analogue counterparts even after adjusting for the lower power needs of DTV.

So it would seem. In Vancouver, CTV analog is presently pumping out a flame thrower 2200 KW and after the conversion it is scheduled for a "whopping" 33 KW. The same RF32 frequency will be used for the digital signal.

Only time will tell, how many homes this will effect, but even factoring in the better effiencies of digital, that is still a huge reduction in ERP. Perhaps all those prime time PSA's from CTV/Bell will have a net economic benefit to their corporate bottom line afterall, seeing as their PSA is primarily one big advertizement for Bell TV and The Source.

On the other hand though, CTV2 (A Channel) in Vancouver will be going from 110 KW for analog to 35 KW digital, so perhaps more homes will be able to pull in CTV2 reliably after the digital conversion, and get the HD upgrade to boot.

I'm wondering if some Canadian stations and networks are doing this on purpose so that people will be forced to subscribe to a BDU but the stations, at least on paper, will still be eligible for simsubs.

I have long felt exactly that. A bare minimum of power while crossing and dotting just enough T's and I's on the paperwork, to fulfil their simsub obligations.

You'll find that the ERP levels issue has been covered in great detail in previous threads, especially in the following: OTA ERP Levels (Analogue vs. DTV) - why so different? (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=130384) There are some excellent technical explanations in there of why the numbers are so different for the same area.

Let's get back to the actual CTV and CTV2 transition situation and we can carry on the more general discussion of ERP in that other thread.

The stations are complying with the power levels set out in the DTV post transition band plan. They have to prove that more power than the plan allows will not be a problem for other stations. CKVR asked for more power and got it. They also used elliptical polarization which effectively increased the field strength. CFPL also asked for more power and used a directional antenna to protect the US co-channel stations.

The broadcasters are doing what they can to make a good transition to DTV. For CKVR, putting repeaters in Hamilton and Niagara makes more sense than higher ERP from Barrie. The terrain in the GTA slopes downward towards Lake Ontario and puts significant parts of Toronto into a radio shadow. Transmitters located across the Lake are the best means of solving the problem.

The coverage for CTV Toronto is not just what can be obtained from channel 9 on the CN Tower. The Peterborough repeater covers a large area to the east of the city, Orillia covers Barrie and areas around Lake Simcoe. Going west, the channel 9 coverage meets channel 13 from Kitchener. I think most viewers who want CTV off-air will be able to find a receivable transmitter in the GTA and adjacent areas.

I think most viewers who want CTV off-air will be able to find a receivable transmitter in the GTA and adjacent areas.
That points out another problem with CTV (and other networks.) The GTA and other provincial capitals will be well covered with a digital signal but other areas will have very poor or no digital coverage.

Tomorrow is a Tuesday. Any bets as to whether CKVR-DT will fire up?!

They were assigned 10 during the transition but were assigned 50 for post-transition. They applied to utilize 10 post-transition instead and were approved.

No. According to the Industry Canada DTV Post-Transition Allotment Plan (http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/vwapj/DTV_PLAN_Dec08-e.pdf/$file/DTV_PLAN_Dec08-e.pdf) (dated December 2008) they were allotted channel 10 post transition (see pg 43 of the PDF). Channel 50 is reserved for future use in Barrie.

I can't seem to find it in the Canadian database right at the moment, but you can see it was coordinated that way with the FCC: http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?facid=179673


Never trust the FCC for Canadian station information.

Anyone near Barrie get a digital signal today?

I attempted, but London CFPL is too strong....

Wow I really got everyone talking. It seems Scarybob and MoreDB see what I am seeing. Coincidence I don’t think so, time will tell gents.

Anyone near Barrie get a digital signal today?

I attempted, but London CFPL is too strong....

Nope. I checked just before noon and not again until around 11 pm. No signal. I have a small Sharp LCD that I borrowed that has a signal meter that doesn't time out. It shows the current strength and the max that it has recorded. If I leave it on rf10 then every once in a while i'll get a blip for a second or so that registers about 5%. I'm pretty sure it's WHEC from Rochester because i've noticed that behaviour from that particular channel before.

Also, I am mostly monitoring using a Kross 4-bay with a dipole attached in front of it in the attic. CKVR would be coming in on the backend on that one. I'm about 37 miles from CKVR. Also it's not in the most optimum position for CKVR at the moment. However i'm hoping it should at least register something like 1 bar consistently if they fire it up. I base that on the fact that when I first got it and its backend was pointed towards CKVR rf3 and the signal came in better than my old amplified rabbitears in the attic and slightly better than the backend of my SBGH Gen1 also in the attic. We'll see.

According to a post on CKVR's Facebook page (posted today), the installation of equipment was to be done by Tuesday. They won't actually be switching on digital transmission until late August.

According to Wikipedia, it says that CKVR will be using CH-8 instead of CH-10 now because of interference with WHEC Rochester. Now, I'll take this with a grain of salt since Wikipedia is notoriously inaccurate at times.

I noticed that too Humbar, but there is simply nothing to that. The CRTC/IC documents all indicate channel 10. Actually I've noticed a ton of DTV errors on Wikipedia. This forum is far more accurate. :cool:

According to a post on CKVR's Facebook page (posted today), the installation of equipment was to be done by Tuesday. They won't actually be switching on digital transmission until late August.

Thanks for finding that out. I guess I won't have to waste my time for now. It would have been nice to see them fire up early.

It would have been nice to seem them fire up early. Isn't that the story of the whole transition?

Humbar; YES!!!! a wise move if true, salt or not I was fearing losing WHEC.

You can read the engineering brief for CKVR if you hunt for it on the CRTC web site. They are on channel 10, no question about it. Channel 8 was assigned to the CN Tower the last time I checked the IC database.