Interesting on the tower spot on the news.
Pretty sure by "Tuesday" they meant it would be installed.
They'll probably sit on it to flip the switch until the absolute last minute.

..They were initially supposed to be using 50. Wish they would have stuck with it.
Where did you get that channel number? Was it the transition channel? As far as I can recall, channel 10 has been designated for CKVR post transition since the orginal digital plan was released.

They were assigned 10 during the transition but were assigned 50 for post-transition. They applied to utilize 10 post-transition instead and were approved.

I can't seem to find it in the Canadian database right at the moment, but you can see it was coordinated that way with the FCC: http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?facid=179673

- Trip

Thanks Trip. I wouldn't have thought to check in the FCC database for a Canadian assignment but anything in the coordination zone should be there. With respect to CKVR choosing channel 10 post transition, the likely reason would be lower operating cost due to lower transmitter power. CKVR doesn't have dense urban areas in the coverage area so the high VHF assignment would not present the sort of problems experienced in major urban centers.

Yet George CKVR has simsub rights in the GTA so they do have dense urban areas to cover.Is the CRTC going to remove those simsub rights come September since they no longer cover all of GTA.Hamilton repeater to fix a poor choice of 10.

Substitution rights are interesting things. You don't have to cover the whole system to get them - if a part of the system is within, I think, the B plus 32 km contour, you get substitution rights. (You might want to read the chapter and verse on this subject on the CRTC web site as I am working from memory.) Putting a transmitter in Hamilton and Niagara will ensure substitution rights on Cogeco and Shaw. So, as I said, CKVR doesn't cover any urban areas.

On 2 occasions in CKVRs history they appied to move the transmitter towards Toronto near Palgrave ON.Both times the CRTC denied the application.CKVR built a higher tower to get Simsub rights in the GTA.Now they have lowered there antenna slightly and a reduction in power and have adjacent channel issues should put those simsub rights in question.A line on paper does not mean real world reception.

I've looked at the technical changes to CKVR-DT vs. their analog setup, and the changes aren't significant with regards to the radiation centre of the antenna. While it would be preferable to see them with a higher ERP, I doubt this would be advisable given their proximity to Rochester and London, ON.

Now they have lowered there antenna slightly and a reduction in power and have adjacent channel issues should put those simsub rights in question.A line on paper does not mean real world reception.
Simsub rights do depend on the line on the paper, not real world reception.
And just in case, the proposed Hamilton relay on ch. 35 would probably have regional station status in Toronto, anyway.s

Yes, the Toronto broadcast market, which includes Barrie, ends at Oakville; regardless of actual coverage. Thus the reason SUN, and now CKVR, have repeaters in Hamilton--to take advantage of simsubs in that market.

rob50312,
Real world has little to do with it. Substitution is a regulatory matter governed by a set of rules. Qualify under the rules and you get substitution. In reality, based on the engineering brief submitted with the application, CKVR should be receivable in many parts of Brampton, Richmond Hill and Thornhill. The interference from 9 and 11 in the GTA is on the fringe of the coverage area where the terrain drops away toward Lake Ontario and signal levels are low as a consequence. With or without adjacent channels, I don't think there would be much useful coverage in the interference zones anyway.

If you go back to the late 60s or early 70s, the first time CKVR tried to become a Toronto station by relocating their transmitter, the application was denied because moving the channel 3 transmitter was expected to cause adjacent channel interference to channels 2 and 4 from Buffalo. At the time, the GTA still had a significant proportion of the viewing public using OTA so the backlash from interfering with Buffalo reception would have been enormous.

^^^^
So, I guess there's not point in trying for it in the Woodbine & Kingston Rd. area of Toronto. A friend of mine is planning on putting up an external antenna soon, so I suppose she'll have to wait for the Niagara & Hamilton repeaters to get CTV2.

In Mississauga my analog 3 reception up until resently has been fine.I know someone in St. Catharines and he gets channel 3.Now you guys are saying their digital coverage area is the almost the same but dont expect reception because your in the fringe reception area.To me 10kw is too low,more like 45kw atleast .

What alot of people here are forgetting is this competion for viewers?

True simo sub suck, but if ad revenue is taken away because CTV2 is getting more viewers for programing, then its up to City TV or CHCH or who ever it is to, when it comes down to re-newing pograming try and out bid your compitor for the program.

TV is no differenet then selling goods in a store. You fight to get the consumer.

I find it interesting that they would rather set up a second repeater in Hamilton, than attempt a CN transmitter..

Sun has hinted that they're not going to continue OTA, so that would be an easy way in with an existing tower spot, transmitter, and assigned frequency.

Unless Sun's plan has changed in the last month or so. Last I heard is they intended to stop broadcasting by the changeover.

Folks,
Let's not get too bogged down up in a discussion of the utility/non-utility of simsubs/signal substitution in this thread. Instead, please use existing threads over on the Television Industry forum:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=12
The purpose of this current thread is SOLELY to discuss the DTV transition status of CTV and CTV2.
Thanks for your co-operation.
downbeat

recnepps77,
Allowing CTV to have a second Toronto station would create a new major market precedent for the CRTC that it has avoided in the past. Rogers has the two OMNI stations but they broadcast programming in about 30 languages and need the airtime. The English programming subsidizes the ethnic programming so using all the airtime on the original OMNI for non-English programming was not financially viable.

The CRTC avoided letting CTV have a second Toronto station when they bought CHUMCity. Originally, Rogers had a deal to purchase the /A\ channel stations but the Commission did not want CTV owning both major news stations and CP24, so they reversed the deal so Rogers got City. Canwest owned two English language stations in the GTA, Global and CHCH but technically the latter station is licensed to Hamilton.

The options for CTV to get CTV2 OTA into Toronto are restricted to the Canwest precedent or repeaters. A CTV2 full service Hamilton station would complete for local news viewers and local advertising with CHCH so the Commission would not likely approve that kind of application. The recent change of ownership for CHCH and their efforts to rebuild it into an independent, financially viable local television station would be jeopardized by a new local station owned by Bell.

Hamilton and Niagara DTV repeaters are the only viable scenario. CKVR is already available throughout the GTA on BDUs to 90% of viewers so allowing them to have broadcast licenses in Hamilton and Niagara will not disturb the local broadcast market in any significant way. CTV2 licenses will expand the DTV options to viewers in a heavily populated part of southern Ontario and represent a worthwhile use of the frequencies.

In Mississauga my analog 3 reception up until resently has been fine.I know someone in St. Catharines and he gets channel 3.Now you guys are saying their digital coverage area is the almost the same but dont expect reception because your in the fringe reception area.To me 10kw is too low,more like 45kw atleast .
Did your associate in St. Catharines get CKVR reliably before analog channels 2 and 4 from Buffalo went off-air?

George yes has received CKVR for decades.

Nothing quite like low VHF to get an NTSC signal over a long distance. Perhaps the escarpment provided some protection from channels 2 and 4 if the receive location is within St. Catharines. Adding a repeater to provide a quality signal on the Niagara Peninsula is more justified if people have actually been watching OTA on channel 3.