Finally I have 91XG in action with CM7777.It is temporary lashed to chimney to see if that position is viable compared to my tower with its VHF/UHF ant,about 50element 30year old design.First experiments yield surprise for me.At equal height but about 25ft apart(yes that's the big variable)the 2 setups perform about the same!
Guess next stop is both on same tower but that wont be easy.yes I know rotor is VIP.:)

PS Roger 1818,you are close and helpful,any suggestions?

REW, Can you be clearer when you say they perform about the same? For UHF it doesn't surprise me as those big old antennas work very well. For VHF it would surprise me as the 91XG shouldn't be very good at all.

just an update for me in Bridlewood....see previous post (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=1146416&postcount=75)

Kitztech amp is back to the States for warranty repair.

Picked up a CM7777 pre-amp yesterday at Carlingwood Mall (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=1140601&postcount=735) and set it up. The FM trap with the CM7777 does make a difference for Global on 6.

I'm using a Winegard YA-1713 VHF-HI antenna and with the FM trap, Global has improved from watchable to good. My CTV problem persists and I'm starting to think this may have more to do with being an attic install. Still have ghosting on that channel....

With my 4228HD in the attic I receive WNPI (18.1-18.3) even without a pre-amp and with the CM amp I also get WNYF (Fox-SD,CBS-HD 28.1,28.2). The other PBS stations and WWTI (ABC) that I received consistently back in August haven't been seen since I lost the Kitztech amp. I suspect that may have had more to do with seasonal reception rather than performance of my antenna with the Kitztech. It will be interesting to verify once I get the KT-200 back in service.

The wife has been supportive of my new "hobby" and she had one of those jaw-dropping experiences when we first experienced OTA HD. We've had satellite and cable over the years, but we had never seen HD like HD on OTA. I feel the only way to improve my current setup is to move it outside; but that takes more money and planning. I'll get around to it...

Thanks to flavoie, roger1818, stampeder and everyone else for their continued advice and tips..:D

jrmclean,
how reliable is your reception of WNYF-LD ? how is daytime reception ? Your TVFool is fairly close to mine with -10 (-8 for me).
Your CM7777 purchase got me thinking.
I decided that if I was going to use an installer to put my antenna up the roof, I was going to stick with a 7777 instead of my KitzTech. Jury's out on this one. If somehow I think i'd be able to get up there myself for repairs during winter time, I may still use the Kitz. The other downside of the Kitz I did not expect is it seems to need an FM trap in front of it in Orleans. The noise figure delta gets lower when you put an FM trap in front of the Kitz...

jrmclean,
how reliable is your reception of WNYF-LD ? how is daytime reception ? Your TVFool is fairly close to mine with -10 (-8 for me).


So far it is rock solid..no pixelating, no dropouts; including daytime. However, it has only been 1 day, so I'll keep watching to see how it does over the next week. I can only measure the strength of signal using my Sony TV signal meter. My Bravia is about 3 years old, so it's not the newest generation tuner.

For comparison, without the pre-amp, WNPI shows around 25-30 on the Sony signal meter. Enough to lock in solid 24hrs/day. With the pre-amp, the signal of WNPI is around 60-70. WNYF with the pre-amp is around 25-30, so I expect it will be OK for reliable daytime reception.

If I understand correctly, WNYF is a sister station of WWNY (7) out of Watertown?? If that's the case and I can get WNYF reliably, then there's no reason to try for the elusive channel 7.

If I understand correctly, WNYF is a sister station of WWNY (7) out of Watertown?? If that's the case and I can get WNYF reliably, then there's no reason to try for the elusive channel 7.
Correct. WNYF-LD from the South Colton tower broadcasts exactly the same signal as WWNY-DT Watertown -- that is Fox(WNYF) in SD and CBS(WWNY) in HD.

My CTV problem persists and I'm starting to think this may have more to do with being an attic install. Still have ghosting on that channel....

I find this very surprising. CJOH is one of the strongest stations here and I don't have any problems receiving it with my attic install. Did you swing your YA-1713 towards Camp Fortune?

jrmclean, about pointing your yagi at WWNY... keep in mind your yagi has a lower gain than your 4228hd, that wwny transmitter is further south (sister stations but transmitters are not in the same location).

Now that you've got the 7777 working with separates inputs (you must have changed the 7777 input setting ?), looking at your tvfool, there's no reason you shouldn't try it. Since you're in the attic, who knows exactly how well it will work.

although if you have a solid WNYF signal, WWNY on 7 will not give you anything more than what you currently have. It will also give you CBS in HD and Fox in SD. So you might as well point to CF to get a better CTV signal...

flavoie, are you suggesting that the CM-4228HD has more gain on VHF than the YA-1713? If so, I strongly disagree. For channel 7, the YA-1713 has about 9 dBi of Net Gain where as the net gain for 4228HD is non-linear and varies from about -2 to +3 dBi on channel 7.

The 4228 does provide more gain on UHF than the 1713 does on VHF if that is what you are saying. This is a general truth as it is easier to make high gain UHF antennas than high gain VHF antennas.

roger, no i am not.

The yagi will have less gain on VHF for channel 7 WWNY than the 4228HD on UHF for channel 18. Both WWNY and WNYF are close in level in his TVFool report, so he should expect better results on UHF between those 2 stations, so he may not bother if it doesn't work well for channel 7 wwny

Personally if I could get 7 with a VHF-HI antenna and 18 with a UHF I'd be happy with the redundancy. :)

roger, no i am not.

Okay. Thanks for clearing that up.

The yagi will have less gain on VHF for channel 7 WWNY than the 4228HD on UHF for channel 18. Both WWNY and WNYF are close in level in his TVFool report, so he should expect better results on UHF between those 2 stations, so he may not bother if it doesn't work well for channel 7 wwny

I agree (even though WNYF is actually about 6dB lower than WWNY in his report). The other factor is since it is an attic install, UHF signals will propagate through the roof better than VHF ones.

Okay. Thanks for clearing that up.



I agree (even though WNYF is actually about 6dB lower than WWNY in his report). The other factor is since it is an attic install, UHF signals will propagate through the roof better than VHF ones.
Roger, are you sure? There may be other issues that impair VHF attic installs, but I don't think it is due to propagation through roofing materials.

I was under the impression that the difference between UHF and VHF in-building propagation was due to the fact that UHF requires a smaller aperture, and that aperture can be better satisfied through residential-sized glass windows than VHF signals. In other words, it's about the size of the windows, which in general in new construction do not appear in attics.

If anything, an attic install of a VHF antenna will be less impacted by a wet roof than a UHF antenna. (But there are so many factors involved in attic reception it's not worth speculating on. Just assume minimum 20dB degradation, and move on.)

jrmclean, keep us posted. You've got a great Yagi so we'll just have to wait and see.

I am encouraged by your WNYF reception since we have similar TVFool results, and I'll pick up a CM7777 myself too - from the Carlingwood mall Moto Photo store in the Ottawa west end - because I may very well try to put my 4228hd on the roof myself and i'd rather go there once and not go back up there in the winter time because the Kitz has failed on me. Slightly afraid of falling off...

one more thing.
I think you must have great ATSC tuner in your Sony TV.
I noticed it myself with my Sony XBR4 tuner; it was picking up local channels which my Hauppauge 1600/1800 PCI tuner could not see.

Yes, I've tried pointing the yagi in just about every direction to try to clean up the signal on 13. Pointed directly at CF, away from CF and other various angles; doesn't seem to clean it up. Still have ghosting on 13. This is why I think it may have to do with the attic install.

Currently, my yagi is pointing due south towards Watertown.
My hacked 4228HD is pointing at about 150 degrees by handheld compass.

My TVFool shows channel 7 at a NM of -3.9dB at a distance of 92 miles. I really don't understand why I can pick up channel 18 at a NM of -10.2dB reliably at a distance of 73 miles. I thought VHF propagation was better over distance than UHF and TVFool seems to think I'd have better luck with 7 than with 18. As was mentioned, they're both essentially the same content, so I'm quite happy to get one anyways.

The CM7777 is set for separate UHF/VHF inputs and the FM trap is ON. I did have to open it up and change it from factory defaults. The FM trap does a great job of cleaning up the signal on Global 6.

Another question I have for those with wisdom in these matters.....
I noticed my TVFool report shows less Noise Margin at lower heights than greater heights. I ran a 20, 30, 40 and 50 ft report and there is substantial difference between the 20ft and 50ft report.
example:
WWNY-DT (7) shows a NM of -3.4 dB at 20ft
WWNY-DT (7) shows a NM of -4.3 dB at 50ft

Shouldn't height equal better reception?

Have you tried a few different angles of tilt on the yagi, say between 0-15° upwards at the front just to see what happens on 13? We might as well try the whole bag of tricks.

I too have ghosting on analog 13 with my roof mounted ya-1713. I do not think your issue is due to your attic mount. I never investigated further as I believe trying to perfect analog reception can be dangerous to your health.

However one not so obvious way to get perfect CJOH (in the east end anyway) is to aim your antenna to Cornwall and watch it on 8. I get perfect CTV this way.

I find it so strange that people are having problems with ghosting on CJOH-TV (analog 13) with a YA-1713. This is by far my best channel and omnidirectional antennas (like I have) are much more prone to ghosting than directional ones. I have to wonder if something strange is going on with either the YA-1713 or something else is going on when combining with your UHF antenna or inside the pre-amp. Have you tried connecting the YA-1713 directly to your TV (no pre-amp) to see what happens?